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Friday, June 23, 2006

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epredator potato

It is a real pity that this has happened. We have flickr hiding SL photos and we have a protest from
snapzilla.

I can see the need for the protest, and it is culturally very exciting. Luckily they have not stopped serving the actual photos if you have URLs for them, so it did not take the various blogs (including ours) down.

I happened to notice this had happened when writing an internal blog, gleefully typing "and here are some pictures from the Supernova conference and the third birthday celebration dome."

Never mind :-(

Dolus Naumova

How might one get in touch with Cristiano?

rikomatic

Why don't you IM Cristiano Midnight in-world?

I respect their choice to protest in defense of sound moral and ethical principles.

While we all welcome newcomers to SL, without policies and safeguards in place to keep children out of the adult areas and griefers off-world entirely, SL will quickly devolve into, well, the internet.

Cristiano Midnight

epredator,

I purposely left the images intact, and also the live panels and other various things being used offsite. I did not want to disrupt other sites or drag them into the protest directly.

Dolus, I can be reached at cristiano@sluniverse.com.

Cristiano

Timothy_S_Kimball

Cris, I hope this helps in removing what could potentially begat a funding-killer lawsuit with LL. Unless LL would like to move out of the US to dodge that.

Best of luck.
--TSK

Relee Baysklef

I think this is rediculous. Children have been on Second Life since before there even WAS a teen grid. There was a teenaged beta tester even.

The idea that people won't cheat the system because of the credit card stipulation is rediculous. It only makes it harder for children to sign up insofar as it makes it harder for EVERYONE to sign up.

Second Life is free now and you shouldn't be required to give a credit card untill you choose to pay.

As for kids, of course they should be banned if you find out that they're on, but that's not likely. In the case of 'misbehaving kids', they'll get abuse reported and kicked out the same as an adult doing those things.


Some people are worried about SL's relative shortcomings in abuse defenses and abuse reporting, but that is no reason to prevent honest adults who happen to not have a credit card from coming on Second Life.


I myself am 24 years old, and I still do not have a credit card. My land is paid for on my father's credit card as it was when I started on Second Life.

If you've got problems with children being exposed to adult material in Second Life then that's _your_ problem, don't make it mine!


(P.S. Hammy, this isn't directed at you or anyone in particular. I'm just making an open statement to express my dissatisfaction with the way people have been acting over this issue.)

rikomatic

"If you've got problems with children being exposed to adult material in Second Life then that's _your_ problem, don't make it mine!"

Actually it's everyone's problem. LL bears legal and moral responsibility as site developers and managers to ensure that no harm is done to children in-world and that they are not exposed to content which might be illegal or immoral to show to a minor.

And more importantly we as a community of residents bear some responsibility for weighing in on how we deal with managing access to adult content. Much of the freedom adults feel exploring various sexual identities in SL comes from this being a child-free zone. If that assumption can not be made anymore, that ruins SL for a number of people.

Just because you, Relee, don't have a personal problem with it does not mean that you shouldn't take other people's sensitivities on the matter lightly.

(Good for you for not having a credit card, BTW.)

Cocoanut Koala

I would add that "kicking them out" is completely pointless. Anyone can now just pick another name (and make up an e-mail address) and be back in in minutes.

coco

Erbo Evans

"there has been only a small increase in total abuse reports/griefing and no change in abuse reports filed/reporter."

Phillip needs to come down and hang out at The Shelter for awhile. Griefer attacks and misbehavior of all sorts are way up since the registration change, and the hosts there are being worn to a frazzle trying to deal with it all. Not my idea of "fun," and I think that goes for everyone else that frequents the club...

KrisjohnTwin

At the end of July, as part of the Second Life of Warcraft event, I'll be having a small party at my place where we'll be helping people sign up to Second Life (and we'll be handing out World of Warcraft 10-day trials). If my friends are asked to hand over credit card details for SL, even with the promise of not being billed, they simply won't do it. Lots of responsible people who might otherwise enjoy SL stall at the credit card step. It's a good thing that it's been removed.

Tao Takashi

I second that actually. Giving CC also drove away some people on my side. I am also quite sure that LL knows what they are doing and not just say "Hey, let's redo the registration process today. Somebody has ideas?". And teens have been in SL before so it has not worked anyway. So better do it now with the right tools plus get the thing more open.

Of course (as always), LL should communicate more and discuss these issues directly when they do it instead of waiting for some townhall/speech.


Hamlet Au

> I'll be having a small party at my place where
> we'll be helping people sign up to Second Life
> (and we'll be handing out World of Warcraft
> 10-day trials). If my friends are asked to
> hand over credit card details for SL, even
> with the promise of not being billed, they
> simply won't do it.

I'm not sure I understand this. When I signed up for my WoW trial account, I was asked to put in my credit card. I did so without too much complaint, just like 6 million other WoW players (assuming there's a CC or other identification and billing requirement for EU and Asian players.) Since asking for that info is not a stumbling block for Worlds of Warcraft, why would it be such a huge problem for Second Life?

(I'm not taking a position on the registration policy one way or the other, mind.)

KrisjohnTwin

You're expecting WoW to have a cost. SL claims to be free for the basic account. Saying you're free then asking for credit card details is something that sets off a lot of people's fraud detectors. I was only willing to do it because I both knew enough about SL to trust that my card wouldn't be billed, and I could cope if it was. People who just rock up at a party and are pointed towards a registration page may not share the same opinion on either of those points.

Mera Pixel

I'd just like to go on record, that while I seem to be the key image on the front page there, I was *NOT* a member of the protest. I was actually in the thick of things just listening and getting a feel for what was going on. I also pointed out to the masses that a lot of volunteer work went into creating the SL3B event and it was created to enjoy ourselves. For those that don't know, LL had almost nothing to do with the event. While I admit those of us that made it all happen were few compared to the masses that call SL home, it still hurt an awful lot to know that the work put into it all was completely unappreciated.

Lethe Naumova

The protest was one of the saddest days I've seen in Second Life, taking a celebration I spent many hours helping to prepare and others spent many more hours helping to prepare, and twisting it into something for their own personal agenda. Instead of simply asking politely if a time could be made for them to make their demonstration (as demonstrations are in the finest tradition of SL, I agree) There would have been many ways to effectively spread their message, more effective in fact than protesting at an already busy event, taking seats and places in the sim for people who simply wanted to celebrate what SL has achieved over the past three years. They instead chose to disrupt, as surely as if they had spammed particle effects, sound, or giant plywood wangs. And in doing so simply demonstrated that they have no respect for people in SL who don't share their opinion. Jerks, the lot of you. Seriously, as much as I might agree with the statement that something needs to be done concerning registration and griefing, the methods employed for this holy cause sicken me and make me depressed for the future of the Second Life community as a whole. What kind of example are you, the self-proclaimed community leaders, setting?

To that end, I have a feature proposal of my own.
http://secondlife.com/vote/index.php?get_id=1522

Harle Armistice

To everyone who was involved with the protest during the events in SL, I have this to say;

I'm friends with more than a few people who were involved with the organization and creation of the birthday party, and acquaintances with more. They worked ridiculously hard just to give the residents of SL a party, a place to gather and be a community. This was not an event organized solely by Linden Labs, this was -residents- just like you, working their asses off to entertain -you,- to give -you- something to do.

They did it for -you.-

And you essentially spat on them and twisted it around for your own gains. You want visibility? Why don't you go protest at someone's birthday party for all the good it would do your cause. Hell, I don't even disagree with what you're trying to say, but the whole lot of you totally screwed up.

You people have absolutely no respect for your follow residents. You didn't think through the consequences of your actions, and now you've severely hurt your position with a lot of residents who might have sympathized with your position.

It is incredibly frustrating that a group of people who are protesting a policy change and claiming that the change could up griefing... and how are you doing it? By griefing! You griefed the whole game, you jerks. The whole damn game. All of us. This makes you hippocrates, I hope you realize that.

Elitesniper223 Qin

The credit card restrictions had very little effect on teens getting onto the main grid, I know that from a first hand account. I'm currently 14 years old, but I spent nearly a year on the main grid before switching over to the teen grid by my own choice. So this new way has no effect other than shaving 30 minutes off of regestration time to convince parents to let me use their credit card :P

Gonta Maltz

Removing a credit card requirement not only eliminates any tingling perception of fraud in potential users' eyes (As Hamlet mentioned, and as I felt myself when initialy signing up) but it opens the gate to individuals that couldn't previously sign up -hence the increase in international registrants. While CC access is ubiqutious in US middle classed families, where I'd would guess most underaged, griefing players originate; the same is not true to many other places.
Additionally, while it is accepted that a player must sign his CC up with WoW, SL, as we all know, is not a traditional MMPOG.

Relee Baysklef

I'm glad that Phillip is taking the same point of view on all of this as me. I think I deserve to let out a nyah nyah twards the protesters. I have to admit it feels wierd being on the side of the establishment though.

Furthermore, Hammy, in the case of WoW they also realized that the credit card requirement for free trials was preventing people from trying the game. They nolonger ask for a credit card for a free trial, the last time I checked.


As Gonta said, SL is bigger than just the U.S.

A final note, in the case of legal responsibility, Second Life already has reasonable methods for keeping minors off. Legally they're clean, and so are the members of Second Life. Even the hookers.

epredator potato

Christiano, it was indeed a good move to only block the entry pages and keeping all the urls running. I did very much appreciate that.
I really like snapzilla, its become as much a part of my digital life as flickr.

I am really glad you provide this service, and as the provider of it you have a perfect right to use it as you see fit, just as you point out Linden can do what they see fit :-)

The politics of all this I find fascinting, even though in a sense I am just a bystander with both points of view.

The people I try to get to sign up as I evangelize and demo what we can do in SL are sometimes put off by the credit card/pay pal. They are not hackers, or kids but 'normal' business people. "Put my credit card in and they wont charge me, seems a bit dodgy" is the sort of response. Usually after a bit of persuading they register anyway, then see the point of the whole place.

As a father I worry what my kids will get to see, but I know its all there SL and WWW, TV etc. So I think it is my responsibility to help them not be exposed to all this.

That sounds like I am for the changes, in reality I think the benefits of more people seeing more potential will only grow the positive user base.

Which side then, both. Still love Second Life, and still love snapzilla :-)

Cristiano Midnight

epredator,

Thank you for the comments, I appreciate them. I am actually not opposed to removing barriers of entry to help get people to experience SL. What I have a problem with is that in typical fashion, LL has put the cart before the horse - they opened up the registration without putting any realistic tools in place that can be used to manage the change. Their track record on delivering needed functionality in any kind of timely manner is also quite horrible, so I don't have a lot of faith that this problem will be addressed quickly. In the meantime, the burden is put on the membership of SL to deal with what LL has wrought, and for what? To magically get the numbers up because they have a hardon for World of Warcraft? Ultimately, it could have been handled so much better than it has been. The realistic concerns of members have just been swept aside and a bunch of marketing speak that tells people what they want to hear, but is very light on actual substance - and worse, they are simply words with no actions. Maybe LL will surprise me and actually move quickly and thoughtfully on this. I just don't have a lot of faith based upon what I've seen recently. Time will tell. Thanks again.

Jamie David

Harle Armistice what you say is just wrong and uncalled for. There is no need to be rude and insulting.

Harle Armistice: I'm friends with more than a few people who were involved with the organization and creation of the birthday party, and acquaintances with more. They worked ridiculously hard just to give the residents of SL a party, a place to gather and be a community. This was not an event organized solely by Linden Labs, this was -residents- just like you, working their asses off to entertain -you,- to give -you- something to do.
They did it for -you.-

We sat in one area and used the facilities that they made for us residents. We gathered as it was intended and we participated in a community event as part of the community. I for one appreciate the ammount of work that had gone into the build and how ego and pride are involved. We were concerned residents nothing more. There to participate in a public event as all were invited to do. We were polite to all did not verbally grief anyone, did not deface the build and at the start of Philip's speech all that was to be seen was 100+ wearing TShirts.


Harle Armistice: And you essentially spat on them and twisted it around for your own gains. You want visibility? Why don't you go protest at someone's birthday party for all the good it would do your cause. Hell, I don't even disagree with what you're trying to say, but the whole lot of you totally screwed up.

The rude and uncalled for behaviour was not by one of the protesters but one of the build team. Insulted us, threatened us and did not act in a mature manner. Sadly the whole teams work and efforts were overshadowed then by one of thier own.

As to protesting at a birthday party. These were talks that all were invited to and Robin Linden was ment to lay out what tools were to be used.

Harle Armistice: You people have absolutely no respect for your follow residents. You didn't think through the consequences of your actions, and now you've severely hurt your position with a lot of residents who might have sympathized with your position.

I have the utmost respect for anyones opinion and honor. I want to hear what they are with out the use of derogatory language or profanity. I believe that all there protesting were mature, polite and very well behaved all things considered.

No one was looking to start a popularity contest or gather support just get a message acrooss that we are not satisfied with silence.

Harle Armistice: It is incredibly frustrating that a group of people who are protesting a policy change and claiming that the change could up griefing... and how are you doing it? By griefing! You griefed the whole game, you jerks. The whole damn game. All of us. This makes you hippocrates, I hope you realize that.

We did not grief. We were there to listen to the speaches and wear our displeasure. You falsely accuse. If we had griefed the "Whole #### Game" we would have been removed and banned from SL. We did ask the Lindens who were present if they wanted us to move after the threats an hour before the speaches we to start and were informed that we were quite alright there.
----
This thread is about the closure of Snapzilla. I commend Cristiano Midnight for his conviction and community spirit. Life with out snapzilla is an example of what life could be like with out SL. A loud wake up call.

Thank you
Jamie

Cocoanut Koala

I fully supported and respected Cristiano's protest by removing Snapzilla from access for a day, and I completely agree with his reasoning.

The risk of danger to minors IS now much more significant (on both grids), and that danger itself poses a risk to all of us, and to the future of LL.

coco

Maltrich the Crazed

Roflcopters. Absolute roflcopters.

I don't play SL (I'm using the onboard graphics card in my $300 eMachine and I'm too cheap to buy anything else) but if I've been reading extensively about it, and if I did play I would have protested. Just 'cuz. It's my thing.

In fact, I'm suddenly and sorely tempted to protest strangers' birthday partys in RL, just for the hell of it.

And for the record, I don't support censorship, and I feel like minors should be able to access whatever content they damn well please. If you discover too late that the call girl you hired was an eight-year-old, then you've broken the First Law of the Intarwebs: Treat everyone as though they are thirty-one-year-old white males living in their mothers' basements, espescially anyone who offers you cybersex or uses the word "intarweb."

Scott Brison

Much of the freedom adults feel exploring various sexual identities in SL comes from this being a child-free zone. If that assumption can not be made anymore, that ruins SL for a number of people.

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