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Monday, January 15, 2007

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Laetizia Coronet

Ugly stuff, and I mean the FN. They have just now formed a coalition in the European Parliament with (amongst others) the granddaughter of Benito Mussolini - the 'inventer' of fascism as it were and the Itaian dictator who led his country into World War Two - and a Bulgarian party which is openly and, according to newspapers here, very coarsely antisemitic.
That's the tune they're marching to.
The concept of free speech in the traditional American way extends to them as well. In Europe some have a rather different view; they would argue that granting them any rights will just result in them taking those rights away for everyone else. A difficult issue.

Yesterday Demain

Difficult subject, Hamlet, but I get your take and agree that you don't fight ignorance with violence. The big uproar actually plays into the FN's hands, and the French media coverage of SL is indeed turning into a basic obsession with money-making, lowlife politics et al. Move on, guys...

anon

I can't stop laughing at this... the "pig grenade", hahaha!

anonymous

This drove me crazy on both sides because nobody was listening to anybody else. The FN (whom I do indeed think are nuts) were quite proud to be so "edgy" as to be under attack. The SLLU, meanwhile, was treating the FN simply as an enemy instead of as a group of individuals who could possibly be reached if treated with a little respect.

I'm really glad Linden Labs stayed out of this one.

Jasper

Although the "war" caused an ice article, I think they could better have had discussions then "war".
I mean, if the FN had a base in secondlife, there is a good chance like-minded people are there aswel. This means you can go there try convince people of the badness of their ideas.

Drew

FN has set their HQ up again. I stumbled onto it in Axel (89, 211, 99). It's mostly the same story that you described earlier (in terms of reaction by neighbors), but the dialog is much more civil this time around.

And, sadly, no pig grenades.

austin

some things are worth talking about...

when there is a war on ...ie. nationalists trying to eject immigrants and pushing racist ideologies ... the time for talk is over... seems to me like a very creative way to shut them down. glad to hear about it ...

 Dane

Wouldn't the best way to protest those people be to make your avatar non-white?. Just surround them with "undesirables"
Sigh, I'm so glad I don't live in EU anymore.

Yakoub/Julaybib

The Nazi who turned up at the mosque today sporting his Le Pen t-shirt did not want to debate anything. He was there to provoke a reaction. And he got one. He was thrown out. I want them thrown out of SL completely and permanently. I am sure most Muslims (and Jews and black people and other groups targetted by FN hate) want them out, too. Already, there has been trouble at all the places Nazis like to cause trouble on SL. This is not what I come to SL for. These people should be banned. I'm sick of white liberals sticking up for scum like this. Debate? Please! In RL, these people dream of seeing Muslims like me DEAD.

humanoid

I imagine they dream more about not having their property destroyed and their lives threatened by masses of rioting muslim youths, Yakoub. I certainly don't blame them for wanting to pitch muslims out of their country. I'd join a group like FN too, if a group of any sort tried to pull that crap in my neighborhood.

And free speech is for everyone, including muslims and the FN. If you don't understand this, then you don't understand democracy at all. The left loves to crow about how much they love freedom- until someone who offends them shows up. Then the fangs come out and the sham is over.

Yakoub/Julaybib

I think you need to tell the difference between 'offend', humanoid, and Islamophobic hatred. But when 10% of your nation is Muslim and the majority still treated like dirt and the government not even collecting statistics on racism, well, surprise surprise, the Muslim youth get a bit tetchy. I'm sure you'd lie down and take it, wouldnj't you? Le Pen is not the answer, as I said, his lot dream of us being gased like the Jews.

Plot Tracer

As a member of the SLLU, I have no want to talk to FN. If they want to learn tolerence, they should read more - meet people - and realise the poor are not their enemies - it is the rich who are winding them up.

When the conversation is reduced to "Muslims out" and AV's in the style of Adolf Hitler, then I am proud to say the organisation I am part of stayed out of it. If the FN want to talk, lets talk about them taking their bigotry out of SL, our of RL and into the bin of history with Mein Kampf.
http://slleftunity.blogspot.com/

Gerpetty

That's crazy - a protest on second life?

Twill00

You talk about FN the way Nazis talked about Jews, and as stridently as FN talks about Muslims. That gains you no credibility with me.

trent

I think LL should forbid _any_ political groups in SL. Ditto for religious groups.

Most of the pain and suffering in real life is caused by religion and politics.

Dan tdaxp

Ugly stuff, I mean the criminal attacks against people you disagree with. The association of such holliganism with Rev. King is disgusting.

fasthm

«...and the fear is recent immigrant riots in Paris...». That's what the FN would like you to think, but, as far as I know, rioters were French, not immigrants.

alexjohnc3

This is pretty funny. Pigs that explode is always funny, the fact that these guys happened to be on the recieving end just makes it better.

Nobody Fugazi

I don't think I really learned anything here except that ignorance is a common bond of humanity. What this did to was get two groups some bad press (better than no press) and made some people aware of a political situation in France.

Within SL this 'political strife' looks a lot like griefing. By both sides. Vote them both off the island. :-)

daysofthegun

As an American antifascist, I wanted to give my full support to the SLLU. The fascists cannot be given even an inch, or as history has shown, they will take a mile. Thank you, SLLU, for taking it to the fascists no matter where they want to organize.

¡No Pasarán!

cc

"But I wonder what he'd [MLK] make of the subsequent reaction, from high-minded words and protest, to decidedly violent uncivil disobedience."

The protests can hardly be categorized as a violent response to free speech. This applies the secondlife metaphor in an inappropriate way.

The protesters are not reacting to speech in secondlife - they are reacting to policy in real life. There reaction is not violent! It is digital speech made visible through second life code. They have elected to show their distaste for FN policy in a way that is similar to publishing pamphlets, but more 21st century.

Don't confuse violent speech with violence (especially when it doesnt even advocate real violence).

anon

I really enjoy the irony of demanding a group of people be removed from an area for wanting to remove a group of people from an area.

I also enjoy the irony of a group of people refusing to debate or listen to people who refuse to debate or listen to people.

The SLLU were just as mentally repugnant to me as FN in this case. Bravo.

Ichi Jaehun

I am associated with the Anti-FNSL group in 2ndLife.
In response to the article and some of the comments here, especially the one above by CC, I'd like to add some perspective.
First of all I'd like to stress that our group information clearly states, that violent conduct is not tollerated. Furthermore our group is open to everyone, I've even joined a FN member. So to say we don't promote civilized discussion is simply just wrong. We promote it! Secondly one must realize some people join in, just for the fun of it all, and not everyone listens to reason. That being said, I encourage everyone interrested in this matter to vist the land, that was bought next to the former FN facility. We are currently busy building an information center, but you'll be able to obtain the groups general information... and hopefully a more generous understanding:)

btw. I believe the euro techno mentioned in the article, is the French anti FN anthem.

ichi.jaehun

correction: I was refering to ANON of course and NOT CC. Anon should definatly obtain material on both SLLU and Anti-FNSL.
sorry:)

some french guy

Twil00 "You talk about FN the way Nazis talked about Jews, and as stridently as FN talks about Muslims."

Yeah. But the FN hates immigrants because of their origin and/or skin colour, which they're not responsible of. We hate the FN because of what they willfully do and say. That makes a big difference IMHO.

Plot Tracer

There are people who advocate we compromise with nazi-ism. Personally I dont think we shold be Petains or Chamberlains. Lets rid ourselves of this terrible creed bfore it takes root in sl.

FN out of PG zones now!

DMX

Im a little bit astonished at those who advocate 'dialogue' with nazis.

There where people in france in WWII who advocated that.

Those people where indirectly responsible for the deaths of so much of frances jewery , queer community , gypsies and political left.

I think you can see why many see accomodating the heirs of hitler and the vichies, the national front, as merely courting future genocides.

¡No Pasarán!

hate fighter

I totally support fighting against Lepen.

But why isn't anyone blowing up the US congress when they're doing conferences in second life. during the Clinton administration, some of the worst immigration laws were passed, nobody seem to even take notice of that.

What will always remain dreams for LEPEN is an everyday reality in the USA, thanks to all americans who vote democrats & republicans.

Remember the american indians, the slaves, the vietnam war, the shah in Iran, the installation to power of Sadam Hussein by the US, the killing of thousands of iraqi innocent, the nicaragua contras, the coup against Hugo chavez. Blood has been on the hands of america since its inception

bryce

Hi,

It turns out socialist party's candidate Ségolène Royal also built her HQ in SL, respecting kyoto environmental norms (!)

I'd like to (modestly) make a few precisions, being French and interested in politics :
- I loathe FN but I have to say they are not officially fascist / antidemocratic / racist etc. (and certainly not nazi), at least in reality.
From time to time FN leaders are condemned by the French justice for inappropriate declarations, but most of the time they respect the law. Which is, by the way, very harsh against intolerance/racism, much more than in the US, I think, because we consider this is more important than freedom of expression. Did you know, for example, that it is forbidden in France to deny the holocaust happened?

-The riots of Autumn 2006 did NOT take place in Paris, as anglo-saxon press says, but in the suburbs (and not only Paris' suburbs). You won't get pictures of people assaulting the Eiffel tower and Notre-Dame. And although many poor people from city suburbs have immigrant origins, I really think this was a *social* problem and not an ethnic one.

- I would not say FN ideas have spread across Europe like a virus. The FN hates Europe, and countries' nationalist parties are often only concerned by themselves. I think the position of the extreme right is very particular to each country, the particularity of FN being that it has an incredibly high electoral power and that it is officially quite politically correct (which is very insidious in a way). It is true nonetheless the FN just created a "group" in the European parliament with horrible people (among which the granddaughter of Mussolini, and she was allied to Berlusconi by the way)

As for the debate "should we accept fascist people" etc., my answer is no! I'm glad we don't take the freedom of expression for sacred as you Americans do. You can't accept anti-democratic behaviour in a democracy (and doing that is not anti-democratic). And being intolerant is certainly not a problem of "ignorance". It's not "smart" to respect others, it's just right humanly speaking.

Andrew Pollack


Actually, one of the few long term good things this technology may be useful for is political rally and protest.

Consider that this is a surreal protest in a nonexistent place about a real world issue. Consider that nobody got hurt. Consider that in the end, the FN didn't have to let anyone onto it's bit of property so it is equivalent to a protest at an embassy (with the assumption of strong military support for the embassy).

Further, no one person can mount an effective protest, it requires a lot of like minded people yet mob rule doesn't over run the rights of the individual (in this case the FN).

There will be changes needed as the balance of mob rule vs. individual rights is found, but in general this has proven to be an excellent use of the technology.

Andrew Pollack

james

To start I do not know or understand anything. I see some things, have some questions, and ideas. I wish people did understand. I was born in the USA and lived in Germany for 7 years as a child. I live in the US now.

The US government has lots of blood on its hands. That is easily verifiable with some research. Or course so does every nation on this planet. In fact looking back over history, all "races" have been slaves and slave-keepers.

For a long time I've thought that the US has lost (if it ever really had) responsibilty for its choices, and support for the freedom and rights of individuals. The past couple of years has shown legislation against homo-sexuals. There has been a long stance against pot smokers. And I really don't know how much people here care about what's happening to normal humans who just happen to live in iraq currently.

I think war is stupid and a waste. I do not understand why poeple hate each other and want to do harm to others. Except maybe they got hurt as kids and want to respond in kind. though there are also those who choose differently. So maybe they fear for their current and future prospects. Fine, I think we all do. But to arbitrarily pick a scape-goat makes no sense.

If someone attacks me personally I will defend myself. Any living creature has that right and should be expected to do so. If my family or freinds is attacked I will defend them. If some stranger walking down the street is attacked he/she is no different, so why should I not help them? But to attack someone out of hand makes no sense. To the people who think it does I want to know how you think that way. And yes I want to change your mind. There are other solutions to what is really the underlying concern.

I am glad to hear the french perspective on freedom of speech and democracy and facism, etc.. I did not know that difference between the 2 countries. Truthfully I am torn. I do not know what is "better". I do believe that limiting anyones ability to speak their minds is limiting our ability to make something different happen. I do believe that some people will only become further entrenched in their ideas when they face attack.

Look at the planes that hit new york and the pentagon. As I said before I do not support war and violence, unless I am defending. the fact that we took that hit, instead of anywhere else in this world, means that we did something and that we need to learn a lesson from it. But did this country even think about how they could have brought it to themselves? I dont think so. And proably becuase they got so righteously entrenched because they suffered violence, that allowed them the justification to ignore their own responsibility.

I think the world is better, certainly iraq is better, not having someone like saddam in power. and yes the US government put him there. and bush sounds like any other facist or racist. people have lost their jobs in this country in the past few years for saying things like that. but i digress. the point is if you step back and look, the world just keeps repeating this cycle over and over, and people have all their justifications about why they are right, which just perpetuates the problem. so when one side is just as guilty as the other then its no wonder either says we're just the same. and everyone else gets stuck with the mess.

i have famiy and friends who work places that get continual protestors. We;ve had to deal with death threats and people coming to our homes. I can relate to hatred, and I am a white hetero-sexual middle-class male. there are no boundaries. there is not security. it is false illusion. and doing the same thing back to those people only makes the conflict more explosive. talking hasn't done anything either. so far the onlt thing that wortked was photographic evidence of them breaking a technicallity of the law. but law is unequal, differnt in places, and mostly arbitrary. the thing is, they have their own opinion, and if they want to live their own lives in their own way i'm ok with that, cause that is exactly what i want. just dont go forcing it on others.

so what to do about FN or any one else who wants to limit people? hell if i know. some lsd, pot and mdma might not be a bad start, along with about 30 years of higher education, travelling the planet, and reading the original text of a dozen differnt religions and alot of philosophy and anthropology. maybe do what gandhi, einstein, budda, jesus, mlk, mandela, etc have said, and show em some love and compassion and understanding, and just like everyone, help solve all our problems just a little more. but if that does not work then what? i've already mentioned how parts of the US government are doing the same to people, when they are supposed to be protecting freedom. waht do we do to them? how do we do it?

blah
James

Lance

James stated ....."Look at the planes that hit new york and the pentagon. As I said before I do not support war and violence, unless I am defending. the fact that we took that hit, instead of anywhere else in this world, means that we did something and that we need to learn a lesson from it....."

What utter nonsense. I guess we had it coming to us here in the US and we should now beg forgiveness of the radical Islamic terrorists or suffer the consequences!

What lesson should we have learned from that attack? The lesson I learned are that there are highly organized terrorist groups that state if you do not convert to Islam and you support Israel, you are their enemy and will die at their hands. They specifically target innocent non-combatants and feel it is a legitimate tactic. How would you respond to that ultimatum? Their misguided radical interpretation of the Quran justifies this in their pin-headed brains. What the hell is it going to take for you to wake the hell up dude? When will you and others of your ilk, quit supporting the enemy and beating up our great country?

By the way, for all of you that feel we should not be in Iraq and that it is all for "the oil", let me state that Iraq is exactly where we need to be: In the middle of the middle east. It takes a long time to deploy a force overseas. We can strike terrorism anywhere from our bases in Iraq. The fact that we have idiots in the media and congress calling for a complete withdrawal only emboldens the insurgents and is at the cost of more American blood. I should know because I have been there.

Soldiers volunteer to serve as warriors in our armed forces and they know that blood will be shed. That is the nature of the business they are in and should be respected and honored for their sacrifices. You NEVER negotiate with maniacal terrorists! If you won't fight terrorism and choose to say we deserved being attacked, what the hell would you fight for? Let the warriors do their job and support them 1000% with ANY funding they need. I would pay twice the taxes I pay now to ensure we defeat the enemy.

You say war is stupid? What would you have done in the face of Hitler's army? Would you say we must have done something to deserve being attacked? Your statements are very contradictory. Not only are they not well thought out but would be disastrous if implemented.

Shinkei

Yeah, you can bomb anywhere in the middle east from iraq, but then, pakistan, kuwait, saudi, israel are your allies, iran is STILL neutral, because technicly speaking, your not at war with them or syria, so who are you going to bomb? yourselves?

The lesson you obviously haven't learned is "Leave us alone" because in the world, theres a whole lot more going on then you will ever know, and sometimes radical people get pissed off

unfortunately in america, the radicals outside the country seem to be ridiculously more important then the ones that are

start sorting out your own problems before you can sort out everyone elses.

Mark Harrison

haha this is crazy!!! I've just skimmed through the article, but as I hate Le Pen or anyone like him with a passion I think it's really cool that even on second life people are protesting against him. I bet everyone is really having fun on it though :p XD

w3ho cares

The world hates le pen, because the world is ruled by globalist new leftist movement. That wish the utter destruction of all nations on earth, and the mixing of all cultures and races into one.

Now if you are against this, and want to maintain your country and it's borders, it's government and culture, and its people. Your evil, and are the sons of Adolf hilter and that u should be shot as the american's shot the Nazi's in cold blood.

Now isn't that terrorism? Facism? Stalinism?

vaspers the grate

Passive civil disobedience, non-violent non-compliance, radical non-conformist triumphalism is the pacifist victory over Domination Systems and Western metaphysics.

twitter.com/vaspers

vaspers the grate

Of course war is stupid.

"Every war is insane, every soldier dies in vain."

Mass killing of humans never does anybody any damn good. Militarists and arms manufacturers encourage divisions between peoples so they can sell munitions for war.

Arms manufacturers win every war. So do rich folk.

Non-violent civil disobedience destroys Domination Systems.

If the populace resists, refuses to cooperate with the tyrant, the tyrant is powerless and vanishes.

Who says the only resolution to conflict must be violent, costly, and painful?

Pro first life

Protest against Second life
Place: Phat Cat's Jazzy Blue Lounge
Time: 3:30 pm
Date: 06/04/07
Wear a green shirt and blue pants to let us know your with us!

Annerose

These comments have been invaluable to me as is this whole site. I thank you for your comment.

Resurgence 488

"I'm pretty sure I know what Dr. King would think of a protest against an anti-immigrant political party" -- I suppose honorary doctor King would remind folks that most Negroes appreciated neither the immigration process nor the fact that their immigrant forebears were not permitted to re-emigrate back to their homes.

Anyway, immigration isn't the problem. Chaos is the problem. People can accomplish anything, but everything needs some degree, even if it's just a fraction of a degree, of preparation and observation. That means management and monitoring. Like normal life.

The National Front party is in the range of normalcy for political parties; National Front members on the average are no less normal than the U.S. parties, or the Socialist parties. It si completely dishonest and slanderous to paint little world war one mustaches on a picture of a politician. That's the same sort of dishonest, inexcusable propaganda that (most) people condemn the nazis for.

Have a nice brain.

sveta

Many interesting information on your site - keep up good worki

The T

Just a quick note. Le Pen never stated that the gas chambers of the Second World War were a 'minor detail'. He was actually saying they were a bad thing and that how the the people in them were killed was a minor detail and not the killing itself. To prove my point:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsPsNcsPbIs

If you understand the French. Someone then questions him on if he really believes that they were a 'point of detail'. He realises this is not what he meant and says that how the people were killed in the chambers was a point of detail. The main thing is that they were killed and he has not stated this as irrelevant or a good thing.

Flüge Dubai

@Shinkei:

I come from Germany and I totally agree with you!! I just cannot bear the arrogance of people, countries and so called leaders to accroach to do whatever and wherever they want. They just manipulate the masses and make them believe a war is the best thing there is!!=?! And then they act the innocent. That just makes me sick.

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