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Wednesday, April 22, 2009

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dandellion Kimban

It's all OK, I really tend to be open to the changes as much as possible, but.....
"Shoot 'em up" is ok but nudity is not? Our civilization is seriously deviant then.

SeanMcPherson Senior

How does this affect a region where there might be mixed-use or parcel-by-parcel owners/operators? If someone leaves rez-enabled in their otherwise (PG-even!) parcel, and people come by, drop a poseball and do the wild thang, does that entire *region* get tagged as adult, blammo? What's the threshhold, and what's the expected process? What about adult language by your users? What if there's nothing visible on the screen from a prim/texture basis, but the text chat or voice chat is explicit?

Melissa Yeuxdoux

As things stand, it takes a lot of post-processing to get results such as Connie Sec's amazing work. Given the current quality of the SL avatar shape, could anything but a texture taken from a RL photo be said to be photo-realistic?

Ann Otoole

@ Two Worlds - Pleasure Island is a Disney Attraction. :P

Raul Crimson

Well, i totally agree with dandellion, is quite sick if nudity is "adult" and a "Shoot'em up" is not.

A part of this observation i still don't know what will be the diference between Mainland and Private Islands about this issue, specially becuase i'm a sim owner and that can be pretty important.

Rika Watanabe

I can already see hundreds of new generation griefers, flying around, peeking into skyboxes, and ARing people who engage in explicit animations in the privacy of their homes.

For lulz.

NorsPoereetah

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Sioban McMahon

"This can happen when the fertilized egg attaches itself to the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services"


I'm not sure how many eggs actually DO attach themselves to HHS. Seems like a rare condition.

Cristalle Karami

@Rika - yep. :facepalm:

Qie

Uh, okay, but that's not the story here. Remember the admonition of Deep Throat*: "Follow the money."

The objective of the Adult Content policy has nothing to do with a more predictable user experience, but rather the creation of demand for redundant virtual land holdings in Adult and sub-Adult regions, thereby boosting LL's revenue.

This forced duplication of land holdings will obtain for both Estates and Mainland, but it's most apparent in the processes being set out for an initial Ursula land swap offered to (some) Mainland residents with "Adult" content.

_______
*Despite the "adult" context, this refers to the Woodward and Bernstein "Deep Throat." ;)

Argent Stonecutter

Jumping Jehosophat!

Kend Linden is quoted as saying "We literally took [their] input and channeled that into the definitions, [...] We're working on the best ways to keep that discussion going."

The definitions in Knowledge Base item 6010 seem to be more restrictive than the original version that caused such a ruckus and was hastily withdrawn. There's no indication there that any resident input was listened to.

Alicia Stella

I'm fine with the changes myself, but I did want to add to the comments here.

Not surprised that violence is OK and sex is not. The MPAA will let action heroes kill and gut 700 bad guys in 90 minutes but show a mild sex scene in a movie and get rated R. I'm not saying sex should be PG, but why is Violence in our society?

And what's really sad (in movie ratings and what MAY happen in SL,) is that Gay/Transgendered themes most often are singled out as Adult or NC-17 simply out of subconscious preconceptions about what materials our *children* should and should not have access to. If a movie shows naked boobies it could get PG-13, but show two dudes kissing, even for 2 seconds, and you get R. Not fair, but it's what has happened for awhile.

@ Raul Crimson In the brownbag session for Merchants, the Lindens said that for Private regions/islands you will probably need to set the entire sim to the highest level of maturity rating for any of the included parcels. So if some are PG and some parcels are Mature, your sim is Mature... As far as I heard during that meeting, if even 1 parcel is Adult in a PRIVATE sim, the sim itself must be tagged Adult.

What I did find interesting is that if you use sex poseballs in front of an audience it's Adult. But if you sell the poseballs themselves in your store it is only Mature. However they did not go into details about how you could display demos or what can be shown on example signs in the store.

@ SeanMcPherson Rude language or random spontaneous actions by guests visiting your land does not count as Adult. And of course anything done not in obvious public is never Adult. Meaning you and your partner can use sex poseballs in your house, (even if your land is not restricted)... you just can't sell tickets to it. ;-)

Foobar Merlin

Alicia Stella: "Meaning you and your partner can use sex poseballs in your house, (even if your land is not restricted)... you just can't sell tickets to it. ;-)"

awww, too bad! xD

Ciaran Laval

Well from the brown bag meeting I listened to, education use is exempt even on PG land, but I maybe picked that up wrong,

However what the heck is the point of mature anymore? Oh someone might want to swear? Ooh better buy mature land. Mature is being made totally meaningless. People bought mature land to give them the option of engaging in mature activities, many are mainly PG still but the choice is there, now Linden Lab rip up the rule book and come up with a strange definition of "adult" that is so ridiculously thought out that they show they couldn't run a knees up in a brewery.

As for mixed use private regions, not allowed, Nanny Linden will see to that, adults are apparently quite incapable of making their own choices and need Nanny to hold their hand.

Arcadia Codesmith

Just to be on the safe side, my next avatar will be a walking brown paper package stamped repeatedly with the words, "Censored by Linden Labs".

(Along with a fine print disclaimer that the Linden Labs trademark is used without permission under the nominative fair use doctrine, of course.)

Skinkie Winkler

Did you say Rend Linden is a lawyer? Are you sure he's not a politician?

Siobhan Taylor

@Skinkie Winkler: Both I suspect. The Linden apparantly managed to get through a whole Au interfiew without saying anything more than a few vague maybes.

'...but integrated into a much larger narrative and thematic structure. Will they need to move to the Adult continent? "It's hard to address each one at a time," he said.' So... we'll take each case as they pay us^W^W^Wwe come to it.

They may be fair and even handed about this, but from reading the above, I don't hold out a lot of hope.

Ann Otoole

Well SL is certainly now proven beyond any shadow of a doubt what sort of "business platform" SL is with LL's constant meddling in the affairs of others.

Buckaroo Mu

dandellion Kimban said:

"It's all OK, I really tend to be open to the changes as much as possible, but.....
"Shoot 'em up" is ok but nudity is not? Our civilization is seriously deviant then."

However, if you BOTHERED to READ the article, you'd see this, quoted from KenD Linden:

"The same goes for nudity in Mature areas: "If something is merely about nudity," Kend told me, "we're not going to create a rule that's so broad that any depiction or suggestion of nudity... is necessarily Adult.""

I realize I'm probably out of line for defending LL against knee-jerking, but seriously. The very first comment blatantly ignores the stated response from the guy being interviewed.

My only concern is the transition. Will LL be offering m2-for-m2 land swaps in this new AO continent? Or will they be auctioning new sims, and relying on existing mainland owners who want to move to sell their own land (at what I'm sure will be dramatically reduced values)? Either way, I'm thinking that it's going to be a good time to buy PG and Mature land for those who want to expand their Mainland holdings but don't need Adult content (ie, me). However, I'm still of a mind to own no more than half a region until they allow full-region mainland owners access to the debug controls.

Incidentally, I'm running the Public Nightly of 1.23 - which includes the AO controls. It picked up on the fact (apparently) that I verified a long time ago. The interface is pretty clean and unobtrusive - set it and forget it.

Something no-one has talked about - an enormous BENEFIT of this new Adult Continent. Think about how much it's going to cut down on griefing. Throw-away unverified accounts will no longer be allowed in Adult regions. That in and of itself is almost enough to make me move, if I can get a m2-for-m2 land trade, and nothing about anything on my land could be remotely classified as "Adult Content" except maybe some photos I have in my skybox of when my wife/partner was a dancer at a club, and those aren't overtly sexual, merely nude.

Samantha Poindexter

Speaking as the pastor of the First Church of Rosedale, we embrace the coming rapture. The book of Revelation has foretold of this time, when the deserving will be whisked away to a better land, where they can partake of all that is good... while the mainland will be left barren and desolate, and all will be chaos and ruin.

There's still time to join the chosen ones. Don't be Left Behind.

Arahan Claveau

I'm personally concerned with the implications for Second Life artists. Interpretations of the ToS has always been murky this is going to cause even more confusion and will no doubt further throttle creative expression.

The broad spectrum of SL art has been getting much more attention recently and is being taken very seriously by many respected art critics and academic institutions. Just as such positive progress is being made this new rule comes along and threatens to further limit the potential audience.

Not all art is explicit of course but even without this rule questionable incidents of censorship regularly occur. Remember the "Nipplegate" affair at Burning Life?

Hamlet Au

I tried to raise that point with the *Lady Chatterly's Lover* example, Arahan, which is an acknowledged work of literary art but is also sexually graphic. Kend seemed to suggest such examples wouldn't necessarily be sent to the Adult continent.

Samantha Poindexter

...and there's nothing more reassuring than a suggestion that particular content might not necessarily be deemed too hot to handle, is there?

Arahan Claveau

Right Hamlet, the Lady Chatterly's Lover example is an important observation and highlights how subjective the whole issue is. The problem is that an artwork can be meaningful and beautiful to one person yet to another it could simply be seen as obscene and offensive.

Perhaps this won't affect the art community at all, only time will tell, but it is a worry that a gallery owner won't realise they are going against the policy until they get a notice to relocate, or at worst slapped with a ban or suspension.

Bluegum Lunasea

On the one hand I, like Buckaroo above, am not too stressed by what LL have said so far. Nudity is Mature but sex is Adult. That seems easy to live with.

But then I remember the nipplegate drama about a prim statue in a "Mature" sim and I start to wonder/worry. So here's a question: will the full frontal nudity currently displayed in skin stores be allowed to continue in mature sims? Or will LL require "bits" to be covered if the store is to remain in a "mature" area (and thus be visible/available to all the unverified new accounts)?

Ann Otoole

I'm considering building a large statue but will have to rule out anatomically correctness because of the competition griefing potential. Risking a business over a fight that needs to be conducted before a judge is not worth it.

Random Merryman

I run a real-world web design agency with my partner, and we had been operating an office in-world where we expected to extend our business to offer services that helped link the two worlds. There was no adult element in our work whatsoever.

Today, as a result of this concrete evidence that LL intend to go through with their policy of enforcing poorly thought-out restrictions on how responsible and well-behaved customers are able to use their product, we have shut the office and are pulling our business out of Second Life.

Our own personal, non work-related, involvements are also under review.

Arcadia Codesmith

"Think about how much it's going to cut down on griefing."

Will it? I've seen griefers with two or three year old accounts operating with impunity. There's no effective enforcement against griefing that would require rolling a new avatar, unless the griefer has managed to be banned in so many areas that he can't leave his own land.

I imagine if anything that there will be LESS protection against griefers in the Adult region, with the enforcers taking the attitude that you enter the continent at your own risk and being there implies consent to anything that happens to you (particularly troubling since they're lumping together erotic and graphically violent content).

We'll see how it plays out, but if segregation is the answer, I'd just as soon see the sex continent segregated from the violence continent. Big fan of one, not so hot on the other.

CyFishy Traveler

So here's a question: will the full frontal nudity currently displayed in skin stores be allowed to continue in mature sims? Or will LL require "bits" to be covered if the store is to remain in a "mature" area (and thus be visible/available to all the unverified new accounts)?

I note that the guidelines specify "photo-realistic" nudity, for one. Few skins manage to reach that level at it is (they tend to look a bit 'unnatural' when they do!) and, for that matter, I've seen quite a few skin kiosks that do, in fact, cover the naughty bits.

Mitch Wagner

I think there are two ways that LL can go about enforcing this:

The relaxed way, where they make the rules, clamp down on egregious violations, but otherwise let the various communities of Second Life police themselves. When faced with ARs, err on the side of inaction -- if it's a matter of nudity in an art gallery or even a certain amount of violence in RP, just let it go and tell the person making the AR that if they don't like it, they can teleport somewhere else.

The strict way, where Linden Lab freaks out at every wardrobe malfunction and everybody who accidently leaves a window open when operating a sex bed.

Lorelei Mission

Now that the "blocked ad words" list is starting to leak out (words that will prevent Unverifieds from seeing even Mature land ad listings), things are looking quite hairy. Blondin Linden said several times that BDSM is not inherently Sex, but the word BDSM will be blocked from Unverifieds' view everywhere, so even a place like the bdsm Forum (a community support place that has a circle of seats, nothing more) will not be findable by Unverifieds.

Keep in mind, folks, there are many people who would like to Verify but can't (neither age-verify nor have credit card/paypal). That's an issue for many nonUSA persons.

Argent Stonecutter

If PG is for "educators and businesses", what's going to happen to all the PG-rated land on the mainland, which people bought in the expectation that it would, well, match "PG" in movies ... which allow such hair-raising things as smoking, and beer, and even a bit of non-sexual nudity?

And while Blondin said in the forums that naked avatars will be allowed in mature areas, that's not what the published standards say.

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