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Wednesday, August 11, 2010

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Raven Haalan

Lol. Yes, now his gripes are the same things the rest of us gripe about. He had me cracking up...

"That's cool! I guess my big issue is... COULD SOMEBODY PLEASE LOOK AT PERFORMANCE!"

Hahahaha!

Robert Kohut

Awesome. This shows exactly why most of my friends in the first life HATE second life.

For the most part I've seen SL as this giant chat room with a content creation engine behind it. Trying to show off SL as anything else has always been unproductive at best.

In SL I create vehicles and prim accessories and for some reason people buy them. . You would never catch me trying to drive around though - that's just crazy.

Little Lost Linden

The lag in SL is something astronomical, that is for certain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlfOckjXxLU&hd=1

You want Frankenstein? I'll give you Frankenstein!

cube3

did he ask for achievements to save SLs ass?

didnt think so.;)

the problem is always "interference design"....."interface design" done by computer science IT folks lead.

anyhow back to rome burning.

Ann Otoole InSL

The world's biggest monitor didn't help his mac run SL good? He needs to upgrade to a quad core PC 64 bit 8gb ram with nVidia GTX480. One would figure the Lockergnome would actually have a serious geek rig anyway.

Anyway he is just looking for adsense fodder. He doesn't even care about SL as long as he can leech some page views off the SL community. If he cared he would first have to have a decent system, get the right viewer, and then spend a week solid traveling around to get a good idea of the diversity of SL. And not get hooked never to be seen again.

cube3

so i watched the annoyingly over acted geek affected 15min video tour.. .. blind leading blind..lol no dissability pun made.

one who overly adores the medium because it extends his world view..( so few mediums do for those of non mass marketability) so that the effort to use of the sl interference design is worth the deal.

and

one who condemns the medium because its beyond his world view--(technology centric)- as he says in his last minute recording)and can only see frame rate and preprocessed product by fellow gamer geeks as a valueable offereing.

never before has the WHY of SL that i tried to convey to others for years has been shown so clearly...

it raises those who are sub par, while lowering those above par...and via its interference interface-- brings them together-both in a slef satisfied illusion..

and --if chris reads this.. THAT is why what SL represented and was Hyped about WAS important ..years ago and now even more..

it never had anything to do with its quality per an individuals thoughts.. but in its lab experiment way, of showing us the future of human comunications via heavy tech based business modelled mediation...

just like tv and film before it.. the mediums you used to pick up all your "facial and verbal" entertainmant gimmicks."..

even if you cant admit it;)

best. and enjoy Scott Pilgrim VS. World. its going to help you make even more money selling stunted adolescence as the new human adulthood.;)

Komuso Tokugawa

*yawn*

As if we need an internet otaku tarento to tell us SL performance sucks ass.
[ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarento ]

Something those of who use SL have beaten LL to death with and continue to do so.

Despite this, it's been a great prototype [YES PROTOTYPE] platform for experimenting with virtual immersive social experiences such as LIVE MUSIC, where musicians can perform and earn RL income from distributed live performance.

There are advantages/disadvantages to performing over the internet with various competing/complementory technologies such as video, 3D etc. These are early days on a number of levels.

God please spare us from lame internet tarento's...

AND TURN OF THE FRACKING LAME TEXT TO SPEECH!

cube3


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UgBj9b7TP4&feature=channel

"favorite artist of ALL time."

everyone has the right to choose their favorites;)even if its just modeling called "art in sl"....;)

but for me, your love of HE MAN painted/vinyl toy imagery in its full context for you as "art" kinda makes everything being expressed during this blog based pr dialog, even more clear.;)

best
c3

Little Lost Linden

"AND TURN OF THE FRACKING LAME TEXT TO SPEECH!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecPeSmF_ikc&p=0A326518EAC5D8D0&playnext=1&index=24

Hamlet Au

"These are early days on a number of levels."

I hear you, dude, but damn, I heard exactly that same thing about Second Life in 2006. And since the Internet ages in dog years, that was like 28 years ago. And STILL it's such a lagtastic nightmare.

Adeon Writer

Hey look, someone saying how bad 2.0 is. Throw him Emerald to shut him up.

Komuso Tokugawa

Hamlet, you need to study technology evolution and diffusion more. The timelines on these things are a lot longer than people think.
VR, AR, Virtual world, serious games, simulation based learning etc etc have been around for literally decades in concept/prototype form...and so has they hype.

I whack LL over performance every time I do a gig as it happens...but I still do the gig (assuming we don't crash etc).

The failure of SL is a failure of LL technology management...not a failure of virtual community development around the platform.

This is something Chris "cluess about communities, but I need to generate some ad revenue quickly by being an uniformed asshat" Pirillo fails to even understand. So much for being an expert.

Personally I'mm much more excited by Unity3D as a dev platform for my needs.

Hamlet Au

I'm fairly excited about Unity3D as well. But that's got its own hurdles and limitations.

Believe me, I think a lot about where stuff like Second Life fits in the evolution of technology. I've done several think sessions with folks at Stanford and the Institute of the Future. And Second Life just doesn't fit with their analyses of what's going to be important in the next few decades. They were somewhat excited about SL 4 years ago, but they were *way* more excited about augmented reality, and that's taken off while the 3D metaverse idea has not. I'm really not seeing any way forward for Second Life except as a consumer product, and only if it succeeds at that level, *maybe* we can start talking about bigger things in the next half decade. But it's gonna be difficult, no way around that.

ZenRascal Mandelbrot

Excellent reporting, Hamlet. Chris has a loud internet voice and for this reason it carries weight when he disses SL's performance. Thing is, many SLers agree with him.

But a second issue is that Chris is on a totally different wavelength. He admits he "doesn't get it" about why ppl use SL. At least he admits it. In that sense he's being fair. He will never have the patience of those of us who love SL and want to see it flourish.

Robert Kohut

That sounds about right, Komuso - I put up with a lot of the performance issues because of the people I've met in-world. I'm constantly being reminded that the only reason I ever log on is because of the groups and communities that I've been involved with.

I would go as far to say that if you(a new player in general, not you personally) enter the world for the first time and don't find people to clique with, your days in SL can be counted on less than one hand. Although that's only partially abstracted from the direction I think you're going with your comment.

Failing that, Oliver didn't really do a very good job at actually showing off Second Life. Every place they went might *seem* interesting, but to an outsider who's clueless about online communities, it's a snore fest.. and an aggravating one at that.

LokiLoki

My favourite quote is "MY FRAME RATE IS AWESOME"

Komuso Tokugawa

Wihtout communities SL is nothing.
Anyone who has ever worked corporate IT (as I have) would have told you SL never had a snowballs chance in hell beyond the early adopter pilot tests, despite the hype from booster "evangelists" and vested interests.


Performance ie: Quality of Service, Security, underpowered corporate laptop profiles...a long list anyone could have told you were unsurmountable barriers to corporate entry AT THE CURRENT TIME.

There's others...but no one wanted to listen, all too busy trying to push shit up hill with a pitchfork, so to speak.

Not wanting to be a backseat driver, but imo SL failed due to moving too fast with an unstable technology platform. They would have been better served by stabilising the base product and focusing on serving the core market who were creating content, spending money and supporting the inworld economy - the outliers who became the outcasts under M and are now trying to be courted again...but too little too late I fear with empty words ringing hollow.

Unity3D is like any other tech, pros and cons. It serves a different set of markets, but it can be used to develop micro vw for niche communities as well. They seem a lot more focused on stabilising their tech at least.

Onwards and Upwards, avoiding the slings and arrows of outrageous nerds...like CP.

Adeon Writer

"Can somebody PLEASE look at performance?!" ~ Chris Pirillo on SecondLife

A cry heard all too often, Chris. Thankfully it's not what SL is about, but it would.. so nice to have, if they'd ever listen.

L. Knoller

LOL now he sounds like a whiney adenoidal guy with attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder.

My favorite part is him whining about getting flamed

NeilC

Clearly a degree of validity to his points about frame rate, usability. But it's hard to take seriously a guy who gets confused by his own text to speech software.

Annyka Bekkers

SL sounded a hell of a lot more interesting when it was overrun by porn and gambling. Even if his performance had been better, that looked one dull boring tour.

Ignatius Onomatopoeia

He has SL pegged. I cannot tell you how many students say *exactly* the same thing.

They use our simulations in SL, thank me, say it was more fun than writing another paper. The course evals are positive and we faculty get pats on the head from our chairs and deans.

But the students never, ever return to SL.

And you know what, I really don't care anymore: my days as cheerleader are long over for a company that cannot manage to improve performance and build a UI intuitive enough for college freshmen (who all have Chris' level of patience). Since I don't plan to have my next classes explore a broader world, but simply use a few simulations, I don't really need SL.

If I want to just build a stand-alone simulation with a team, we will just do so in future in an OpenSim environment where we can actually back up our shared builds.

Whatever ardent SL defenders claim, most folks who use SL are never going to have a serious "geek rig." Mass adoption would predicate a fast and intuitive experience on average hardware: run-of-the-mill Windows and Mac laptops on wireless, if LL wants the college-age demographic.

Linden Lab, why are you NOT listening to what Chris Pirillo is saying?

Ajax Manatiso

All the lag and performance issues can be solved in a very short period of time with better hardware and increased bandwidth, but LL likes to operate on the cheap and they will always squeak by with the very minimum hardware and bandwidth to do business -- and will only upgrade if they absolutely, positively have to -- such as large numbers of crashes or failures to log in.

Arcadia Codesmith

Kudos to Chris for taking a second look.

Hamlet said, "Dedicated Second Life users have learned how to overcome those hurdles.."

It's not overcoming so much as learning to mentally edit our experience.

My avatar locks up for a second, I take my fingers off the mouse and wait until it responds, and don't even realize I'm doing it anymore.

I know a green cloud or a gray sphere is a placeholder for textures that are still loading, so I don't really see them anymore.

When I'm dancing with somebody and my partner's hand passes through my face and out the back of my head, usually it doesn't really register.

I think we become so accustomed to compensating for the shortcomings of the system that we sometimes become defensive when somebody outside the system points those shortcomings out.

But the only people who can accurately tell us what's wrong with the new user experience are new users. And sneering about their lack of patience or substandard hardware isn't going to win over new Second Life fans.

cube3

wow. autistic ADD students, Stanford and "institutes for the future-lol" only 4 years into 25 year old technology and media memes. and the only desire is so that the HUMAN CPUS can be made to conceed to the techs ghz.

how did "human art and culture" ever survive black and white film or radio?..lol

Komuso Tokugawa

@Arcadia
"But the only people who can accurately tell us what's wrong with the new user experience are new users."

Bullshit. There are many hard core SL users who have deep technical and UI experience who have been literally screaming at LL years to "Fix their shit"...to deaf ears.

"And sneering about their lack of patience or substandard hardware isn't going to win over new Second Life fans."

I'm sneering at a whiney little internerd tarento who does'nt understand that we worked around the technical shortcoming costs as the qualitative/quantiative benefits still made it worthwhile, with the expectation that certain tech/user experience issues *would* get solved.

Unfortunately not...but hey, it was a great desktop party for a few years!

Onwards and Upwards!

Val Kendal

yeah I agree with Arcadia. The guy took a second look after we flamed him and he still didn't like it, and the reasons he had are valid. It *is* sluggish as hell, the interface (esp. v2) is kludgy and distinctly non newb-friendly, and being led around by the nose to places really takes away the 'oh wow; factor' of discovering a gorgeous build, or making something original from scratch, or meeting someone you would never meet in RL. And it hasn't changed much in 4 years to a quick look - ooh sculpties, nicer skins, and boobs that bounce! In my experience most people aren't going to get or like SL and abandon it very quickly, and those of us who do have learned to live with it with all its problems and limitations (just like RL - why can't I fly??).

I think he had the Text to Speech on so his viewers could hear the conversation.

Bob L

Usability and performance suck. Good Lord, that is what is said about every MMO on the damn market. Prillo was just phoning that in.

IEEEVirtual

If I didn't hold the hands of ppl I got into SL, their reactions would be the same as Chris. A nice fresh look from a "extroverted" geek. Which is the keyword here. Because we all know if SL performance was great, Chris would still complain about "not getting it". I think the merger of augmented reality and virtual worlds will be the key to performance while keeping the quality of freedom SL offers.

comoro Infinity

SL has the unique combination of hurdles that makes it unsuitable for geeks because you have so much freedom you won't need them as well as unsuitable for consumers because it is a platform created by developers for developers. You can use SL comfortably if you have the psychopathological need to develop the abilities that keep you in world at the expenses of the causes that keep you psychologically engaged. Darwin would be fascinated not just by Pirillo and his straight geometry of desperation but also by the army of monks on the opposite field lurking in a strategy for their survival.

c3

One has to wonder about a generation that never knew LEGO as bricks in a box, but only as BILLION DOLLAR BRAND PLACED HERE. Final photo - Build the Millenium Falcon with exclusive Chewbacca with messy hair Figure.

Philip, at 40ish is the former, and never understood the latter, which is why for 5 years, the medium age of SL paying /staying users has grown, never finding many sub 25-30 recruits.

that of course, and crappy communications to anyone beyond paid for or cult member:)

Oliver Szondi

Hey all, i showed Chris around Abborts for a reason i put together a short tour of items in second life, i was given 10 mins to show chris second life (time was short) so i took the 3rd top landmarks in my inventory from the tour and took him to them. The Airadrome also displays aircraft. Finding things to show Chris in second life that relates to many communities was a challange. on one hand you dont want to show him a place full of "noobs" as he said about noobs suffering from nudity (i myself dont belive all of this).

I hope this makes it alittle more clearer.

Cubey

"I'm not sure why Oliver took Pirillo to Abbots Aerodrome, which is quite literally one of the oldest sites in Second Life."

It's not actually, other than being located in a sim that started in 2004, I rebuilt it several times over to stay current (and because I'm obsessive). So it's hardly obsolete. If you're not a fan of my building style, that's one thing, but to slag it for being in an old sim is nonsensical.

As for *why* Oliver took him there, I believe it to show him one of the popular activities in SL: skydiving. If Pirillo had a better computer with a faster framerate, maybe they would have gotten to the skydiving part. But I doubt it. He was far too impatient to learn even the most basic things about the interface. The smallest obstacle made him angry. It's not an open-minded attitude that lends itself to a fair review.

Hamlet Au

Cubey, I wasn't slamming Abbots, I know you've updated it numerous times, and it's a landmark site in SL. I just mean there are probably other spots that would work better in an extremely short tour. Trying to take him skydiving would have only increased his aggravation, since that's such a complicated, counter-intuitive process. In his time frame, I would have recommended relatively crowded places that are immediately, instantly eye candy, and don't require him walking around.

I don't blame Pirillo for getting impatient. Only early adopters are going to put up with all the lag and frustration required to do something simple like skydiving. It probably would have taken 15 minutes just to walk him through that process. I can deploy my parachute in Battlefield Online by hitting the spacebar.

Oliver Szondi

I must admit i did fail at the second life tour. Ive had people iming me complaining about the way i managed the tour, ill put my hands up now and say yes this was a mistake but it was ment to be for good and not for bad, we all learn by our mistakes and take what we learn from them into account.

Before going on this tour i asked many RHN groups about tour items, i wanted to give chris a good 2 hour tour of second life yet was only given 10 mins due to the youtube upload speed. I had around about 15 landmarks spanning from the UVA to some AM Radio artwork.

I honenstly failed and im truely sorry to every single resident/linden/investor who feels let down by this.

Oliver


Ann Otoole InSL

Someone should have taken him to Gor and given him a complete outfit and turned him loose. The next thing we would see on the internet is "WHERE IS RPT WHERE IS LOCKERGNOME RR THE WORLD WONDERS"

Ignatius Onomatopoeia

Good grief, Oliver. You didn't fail. I thank you for trying.

SL failed.

Hamlet Au

Oliver, don't feel bad, you really tried; it's Second Life in its current state that let you down. Like I said up there, even if you took him to the newest, best sites, he probably still would have been lagging out.

"i wanted to give chris a good 2 hour tour of second life"

That's really the problem right there -- most people in the world will give Second Life (or any online content) more like *2 minutes* to start delivering, or they're going elsewhere.

cube3

hmm.. asking for someone who willingly broadcasts worldwide his opinion via entitlements and sytems he did very little to earn, to spend more than 2 minutes of time, to understand what others see as value.

this has nothing to do with a product. These reactions are about us.

and value. or ignorance of it in the new communication age of the "individual" and personal media extention.

Troy McConaghy

I posted my (satirical) response at http://www.troymcconaghy.com/blog/2010/8/12/the-piano-is-dead.html

Melissa Yeuxdoux

Over at http://parktownprogress.blogspot.com/2010/08/did-chris-pirillo-cheat-on-his-second.html, Boyd Doghouse raises an interesting question: did Chris Pirillo do anything to intentionally make SL look bad? What else was running on the system? What were his preferences set to?

I am not familiar with Macs, much less how SL performs on them; could someone who is comment?

I will say, though, that in this second video, he misrepresents people's responses to the first. The first video was all about how supposedly SL was taken over by those interested in gambling and porn--I don't recall anything mentioned about performance. Twenty seconds' worth of googling would turn up that SL has banned gambling for OVER THREE YEARS. Pirillo couldn't be bothered to find that out, and the result was an ignorant rant. _That's_ what he was taken to task for, not for complaining that SL is slow.

ZenRascal Mandelbrot

To those who are unfamiliar with Macs and are concerned that this contributed to poor SL performance for Chris, don't be. Mac OSX is just fine for SL and Chris is enough of a geek to be aware of whether or not this would be a factor.

SL is a complex system from the LL server farms to the viewer app you're running on your local computer. The OS you're running is a fairly minor consideration. My own machine is homebrew and is capable enough by SL standards (Intel Core2 Duo 2.8GHz, 4GB RAM, GeForce 250GTS). I run various OSes depending on what I'm doing: OSX Snow Leopard 10.6.4 (hackintosh), Windows 7, and various flavors of Linux (mainly Ubuntu & Mandriva). I run one or another OS when I have technical reasons for doing so.

I'm a diehard SLer and have run SL in all these environments. Noticeable performance differences are minor going from one OS to another (but of course running other apps concurrently *is* a factor under any OS). Chris P was running a Mac. My personal preference also is OSX and that's what I run out of personal choice. Mac SL performance is fine and I know from experience that switching over to another OS won't improve things.

DMC Jurassic

Why on Earth did Oliver Zsondi talk 'education & applications' with Chris? Chris Pirillo is a 'computer performance tech reviewer' for God's sake!

That's like talking vehicle computer chip programming with Jeremy Clarkson, when all Jeremy Clarkson wants to do is take the car around the race track with the STIG!

Come SL'ers, let's start trying and see things from other peoples' RL points of view if we're putting SL in a position to be "Real-life-reviewed" - then we have to GET REAL.

This video actually is bad for Second Life, as Chris carries considerable real world customers, so in effect we just lost a decent share of Chris's following audience with this review. :(

If Oliver Zsondi brought Chris Pirillo to ME I would have hooked Chris in 10 seconds! Yes, watching this was frustrating and painful because we have the creativity and smarts amongst all of us to make it different!

P.S. Lag is a two way street between LL & SL sim creators.

Dizzy Banjo

It may make me unpopular to say this, and I preface it by saying that I love Second Life and think when explored fully and creatively, it offers possibilities that really are truly unique.

But I think its now time to really take a hard look at issues like this in the cold light of 2010. I believe this painful process is critical for SL to improve.

I think, rather than sparking aggressive defense, this video should be seen as a frank and honest critique and wake up call to both SL advocates and Linden development.

This video clearly illustrates a number of things :

1. The incredibly poor SL user experience design of SL ( esp for new users ). This applies to the entire architecture - not just the viewer.

2. The almost total lack of understanding ( by users ) of the technicalities of a streamed, single shard, continually modifiable VW. This contributes hugely to the impossibly high expectations Chris ( and most people ) has for this architecture. This should inform architectural decisions in LL development significantly and also how SL is discussed / marketed.

3. The difference between SL users ( and LL's ) vision of how truthfully interesting the value proposition of SL is ( and indeed all VWs ), compared to the views of the current tech development community and general public. For the general public I think this is not just a technical or performance related issue - its about lifestyle and behavioural patterns.

I think both LL and the SL as a whole, needs to reassess these issues considering the substantial shift in behavioural patterns and performance / UE expectations of modern day users.

This applies not only to how 'fast easy or fun' SL is at doing SL, but its core proposition. Which however you look at it, is optimally a sit down, immersive and totally synchronous experience. I think this fact in itself is a critical factor in determining the *possible* growth of SL, in a market which leans heavily towards incredibly lightweight and asychronous forms of communication.

That said, I believe the best course for SL's development is focusing on its most unique characteristics. Which are almost always spontaneously creative, social, immersive, global and yet virtually present, and synchronous.

I think if these factors are emphasized and encouraged and if SL is explained accurately ( a crazy 20 years ahead of its time idea about live streaming a 3d scripted world ). Then it will improve and be better understood.

SL needs to be true to this simple and wonderful vision. I think trying to make it anything else is actually impossible.

Dizzy Banjo

It may make me unpopular to say this, and I preface it by saying that I love Second Life and think when explored fully and creatively, it offers possibilities that really are truly unique.

But I think its now time to really take a hard look at issues like this in the cold light of 2010. I believe this painful process is critical for SL to improve.

I think, rather than sparking aggressive defense, this video should be seen as a frank and honest critique and wake up call to both SL advocates and Linden development.

This video clearly illustrates a number of things :

1. The incredibly poor SL user experience design of SL ( esp for new users ). This applies to the entire architecture - not just the viewer.

2. The almost total lack of understanding ( by users ) of the technicalities of a streamed, single shard, continually modifiable VW. This contributes hugely to the impossibly high expectations Chris ( and most people ) has for this architecture. This should inform architectural decisions in LL development significantly and also how SL is discussed / marketed.

3. The difference between SL users ( and LL's ) vision of how truthfully interesting the value proposition of SL is ( and indeed all VWs ), compared to the views of the current tech development community and general public. For the general public I think this is not just a technical or performance related issue - its about lifestyle and behavioural patterns.

I think both LL and the SL as a whole, needs to reassess these issues considering the substantial shift in behavioural patterns and performance / UE expectations of modern day users.

This applies not only to how 'fast easy or fun' SL is at doing SL, but its core proposition. Which however you look at it, is optimally a sit down, immersive and totally synchronous experience. I think this fact in itself is a critical factor in determining the *possible* growth of SL, in a market which leans heavily towards incredibly lightweight and asychronous forms of communication.

That said, I believe the best course for SL's development is focusing on its most unique characteristics. Which are almost always spontaneously creative, social, immersive, global and yet virtually present, and synchronous.

I think if these factors are emphasized and encouraged and if SL is explained accurately ( a crazy 20 years ahead of its time idea about live streaming a 3d scripted world ). Then it will improve and be better understood.

SL needs to be true to this simple and wonderful vision. I think trying to make it anything else is actually impossible.

Knusper

Who is this guy in the video? And why should I care?

Little Lost Linden

Holy Moly!
Chris Prillo is mentioned at the SLCC keynote speech by Philip Linden.

Oh, and also, the Teen Grid Gets the Chainsaw!

http://thebotzone.net/2010/08/14/second-life-teen-grid-gets-the-chainsaw/

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