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Friday, May 29, 2015

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Petr Vanbeeck

I get it now - all this hate on SL and the diatribes about its just a VR full of extreme sex. Its coming from disgruntled former staff.

Using anonymous quotes doesn't cut it in this argument Hamlet.
And like I said, Twitch knows it too, because Twitch has at least one very experienced Linden Lab vet on its staff. "Of course Twitch banned SL," another fellow ex-Linden told me, when the topic came up earlier this year, "they know what's going on in there." And apparently, it takes another ex-Linden to explain this.

In my eyes using a blind quote like that carries no weight or bearing on the argument.

Petr Vanbeeck

Oh sorry - it appears that this was posted by Iris.

Ezra

The fact that you have to use the old go-to Anshe Chung griefing video as evidence of pornographic griefing happening "often" and "everywhere" says a lot about the actual frequency pornographic griefing occurs.

Can you produce a more modern example? Like, one you've experienced yourself today, yesterday, this past week, month or year?

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but its wrong and reckless to say it happens "often" and "everywhere". Beyond personal viewer preferences, which I'm glad this blog finally discovered exists, there's a plethora of other ignored realities in Second Life like the amount of people who stick to their private white listed parcels and regions which makes griefing impossible.

Furthermore, it's a shame this blog doesn't call out any hypocrisy from Twitch. I've seen Rust players turn off the penis-censoring, Skyrim porn mods streamed, and there's dozens of streamers that don't skip the Witcher 3 and GTA 5 nudity and pornographic content (not necessarily maliciously; just in blind plays a lot of players don't know its coming). There's dozens of streams airing the most hateful racist pornographic voice chat you can find on the internet in H1Z1 lobbies. And more.

The real reason Twitch bans Second Life is they can't be arsed to understand no two regions are the same, and so they can't be bothered to offer a more granular policy towards Second Life that encourages streamers to protect against any accidental pornography. Sadly, blogs like this that regurgitate and re-enforce shallow thinking on the matter never help.

It probably doesn't matter though. The fact that griefers decided to stream Second Life on Twitch first and ruin its reputation with the company probably means Second Life users weren't interested in streaming it anyway. Afterall, the people a user would be interested in sharing with most are probably already in-world with them.

So, not sure anyone cares that much.

Jessica Pixel

Just because there is sex and stuff going on doesn't mean that's what a person is going to stream. Twitch should deal with streams on a content basis for games like SL.

Just stream on HitBox or label your game as something other than Second Life if you really want to try streaming on Twitch.

At least they put in writing that you can't stream SL. That's better than nothing.

Wagner James Au

"The fact that you have to use the old go-to Anshe Chung griefing video as evidence of pornographic griefing happening 'often' and 'everywhere' says a lot about the actual frequency pornographic griefing occurs."

The fact that you didn't read the sentence right below that video says a lot about the desperation to deny the phenomenon exists:

"And videos like this are all over YouTube, viewed millions of times by non-SLers."

And in fact, if you search "second life griefing" on YouTube, you get over 10,000 videos, a lot that are very recent, and a lot that are NSFW (even in G-rated sims). That's kinda the point of griefing - publicly flouting the established conventions/rules.

A.J.

Twitch banning SL gives credence to the argument that SL isn't really a game.

Being complex is a good thing.

Silly rabbit, Twitch is for kids.

Ezra

@Wagner

I read everything you wrote, but saying "And videos like this are all over YouTube" means as much to me as saying pornographic griefing happens "often" and "everywhere".

Let me use your logic; Minecraft griefing videos are all over the internet!

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=minecraft+griefing 215,000 results. Therefore, griefing happens on Minecraft Realms and public servers "often" and "everywhere".

Nah, an ounce more of critical thinking and better yet, actual use of Minecraft would dispel such shallow thinking.

You don't seem interested in logging into Second Life and discovering what 99% of users do however.

You posted a search query from YouTube, but did you actually look at the videos? The vast majority of it is people yelling at each other. As I said, if something like that is undesirable by Twitch, why isn't H1Z1 banned for it's lobbies?

Even the evidence you provide disputes flying penis particles as "often" and "everywhere". More like infrequent and in places like sandboxes where *gasp* an area of no rules on the internet attracts chaos.


"a lot that are very recent, and a lot that are NSFW (even in G-rated sims)"

Compile the NSFW in G-rated sim ones. Show them as recent, show them as everywhere, show them as attracting millions of views. Or even just one of the things you claim if you can muster proving them all.

'til you do that? Empty words, and the worst kind of journalism to have zero interest in proving the things you claim.

Phin Messmer

In my own experience live streaming SL on Twitch, about a month back, I did a stream of interesting places in SL. One of the stops I made was Fogbound, a very popular blues club. But as the venue and people started to rez, I realized I had to leave quickly in order to protect my Twitch Account. Not because this is a nudist beach. And not because of any intentions of the staff, DJs or patrons, but the simple rezzing of avatars provides for more than a second of unintentional nudity.

Ciaran Laval

@Phinn the sort of accidental nudity you describe regarding rezzing would not actually breach Twitch's rules of conduct:

"Nudity can't be a core focus or feature of the game in question and modded nudity is disallowed in its entirety. Occurrences in game are okay, so long as you do not make them a primary focus of your stream and only spend as much time as needed in the area to progress the game's story."

However any broadcasting of Second Life is prohibited.

Unlike games such as GTA5 which the Twitch staff appear to think is fine wholesome family fun, I'm sure the Trevor torture scene would be welcomed by all.

Then there's the fact that Twitch turn a blind eye to the girls whom are the focus of the stream rather than the game itself.

Twitch's stance on Second Life is narrow minded, short sighted and highly hypocritical considering the content they do allow and it's even more shocking to discover there's an ex Linden there encouraging this hypocrisy.

Phin Messmer

@Ciaran You're preaching to the choir. I love SL and I want to showcase the greatness within, but I also have to protect my Twitch account because I stream far more than SL.

Just as Bright Canopy is our alternative to SLGo, perhaps we just need a live streaming alternative to Twitch.

Ciaran Laval

@Phin when you streamed about a month ago, Second Life was already prohibited, Twitch contacted Iris from this blog on that score back in March, so it is probably better that they do list Second Life as banned to avoid people getting suspended because they didn't realise it was prohibited.

Hitbox allow Second Life streaming, as long as it's not adult content streaming, which is a far more sensible compromise.

I would definitely advise all Twitch users to adhere to the rules of conduct and not stream SL.

Phin Messmer

I was just going to mention HitBox

Kim Anubis

The attack depicted in the video only occurred because a property manager didn't use routine land management settings that would not be neglected today at a corporate event in Second Life.

They had not turned off or restricted the ability for random avatars to create an object or run a script, so any troublemaker could launch any sort of scripted objects during the event. Either no one had turned on autoreturn, or it was set at an infrequent interval, so there was no automatic cleanup. And there was no one on hand at the event with the ability to manage the parcel or estate settings to return objects, shut off object creation or scripts, or kick and ban a troublemaker. In other words, they weren't prepared.

This sort of thing has never occurred at an event managed by my company, and it doesn't happen to my competitors' events, either. The video shows what was an isolated, avoidable incident in early days. While there are griefers on the grid, as there are in every online community open to the general public, 3D or 2D, in Second Life we have powerful tools for managing them. The video, which isn't recent or typical, essentially just illustrates what happens to those who do the virtual equivalent of leaving their car unlocked with the keys in it, or not setting up a password for their phone when leaving it out in public.

There are troublemakers around, but those of us managing professional events keep griefers from causing disruptions because, just as you would at a non-virtual event, we actively manage event event security. And anyone can, with one simple check box, keep this sort of incident from happening on their virtual property, simply by restricting object creation rights. This isn't a story about griefing, so much as a simple cautionary tale about remembering to take thirty seconds to set your parcel permissions. Organizations hold classes, put on events, and have meetings in SL every day, with complete control over whom is able to access their land, and what they are able to do on it. Maybe you could report on that?

phantom republic

Thankfully, this will keep Twitch more family-friendly, with more wholesome games like Blackjack (the one with real money) and GTA to fill those family nights with!

Canary Beck

Getting back to the topic at hand...

I don't think Twitch understands how SL works - most of us who live and breathe it everyday still don't understand how SL works. Some might even say that Linden Lab themselves might not fully understand how SL works.

Banning a channel of content (e.g. Second Life) instead of rejecting individual streams, is probably more of an expedient decision for Twitch; however, as opposed to a decision based on an in depth understanding of Second Life, or lack thereof.

YouTube similarly doesn't allow gratuitous nudity and sexual content, but monitoring uploaded static videos must be a relatively easier proposition. Monitoring a live streaming service must be an administrative nightmare, so they're taking the easy route.

Twitch is playing it safe - probably a little 'over-safe' - but then they have their brand to protect - which is their call. The irony here is that simulated extreme violence of all sorts seems to be totally ok, while simulated skin is not. That's a much bigger issue, of course. I suppose that's consistent with typical US approaches to censorship, even in liberal California. Twitch is based in San Francisco after all - so in that respect this is understandable from their perspective, as much as those who use Twitch to stream SL content would wish otherwise.

Cube Republic

The fact that so many people get upset by sexual content is quite funny. Who are they trying to protect us from, because as far as I'm aware we're all here due to a sexual encounter. It's prudish censorship of the highest order.

axelthefox

@ Cube Republic

I think it's the same people who are trying to stop gay and lesbian people from getting married.

zz bottom

I have to agree and they are loosing all the way but in Islamic countries and some Usa states.

David Cartier

When you start saying that Hamlet is talking in ignorance of what's really going on. I'm just shaking my head, because you come across as a crazed true believer when you make a statement like that. There is very little that Hamlet hasn't seen over the last twelve plus years. If something is going on, he's one of the first to get the heads-up. Hamlet has seen wonderful things and things perverse beyond belief. He knows what goes on in SL. Just like real life, SL is both sacred AND profane. Lest you think me naïve, as well, my 12th rez day itself is coming right up. The first things we made in SL were guns and penises.

Flashing Merlin

I find it obscene that TWITCH streams violent video game content to children, and sees nothing wrong with that, but feels they must protect those children from any knowledge of sex.

Of course there's not just violence in video games; there's violence on television, in the movies, in music lyrics, etc.

We place some limits, but the violence has to be extreme and graphic to reach those limits. Scenes depicting "merely" shooting people, aren't given second thought.

This attitude that it's perfectly ok to show endless violence to children is pervasive, and contributes to making the USA one of the most violent counties in the world, in terms of the murder rate, rate of violent crimes, shootings, gang violence, etc.

I mention this because no one else in this thread has, and we need to make people aware of how we are making this a violent society.

Schools are doing their part to help by banning toy guns, etc., but their efforts are thwarted when children are deluged by violence in the entertainment they see when they leave school.

It's the violence TWITCH shows that should be "for adults only."

Adeon Writer

What do you want to bet the Ex-Linden Lab employee now working at Twitch, who pushed to get SL banned, was one of the people LL layed off.

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