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Friday, March 11, 2016

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melponeme_k

I'm not running out to buy a new windows gaming rig just to walk around this theme park platform.

I'll guess I'll just stay in SL until the end.

metacam oh

Ill be honest, after playing around with Amazon Lumberyard and not being able to run HiFi at all, Project Sansar is starting to sound more palatable.

With that said, it almost seems like Sansar is going to be something like Lumberyard. Which I just dont get. They have a 2nd chance to redo Second Life and instead of keeping the great things about SL (Like in-world building) they seem to be just doing what every other game engine is doing. I dunno.. just bleh

Clara Seller

At this point, Sansar seems very "establishment".

I understand the logic of being selective about who gets in and who doesn't, but something about that just throws down a red flag for me. I fear it gives advantage to the same power structure that has created a bit of staleness to SL. Couple that with a lack of good amateur building tools and it feels like when the invitation finally trickles down to me, I'm just going to be expected to put on a face mask, pull out my credit card, and pay to be a guest at someone else's party.

Sounds like "Your World, Your Imagination" is gone.

JohnC

All LL had to do was repeat exactly what they have in SL in Sansar to dominate the VR market even now. Piss-ups, and brewery's come to mind. Unfortunately many of the loyal SL content creators will follow LL to Sansar (what other choice do they really have) and once again support and pour money into an, IMHO, undeserving company. They should all move on mass to open sim where they would quickly create, simply by being there, a massive free user created virtual community, unhindered by corporate money grabbing dummies. As long as people wait to be fed from on high they will always be slaves to fools, the electric sheep that LL and all the other currant slew of VR "experts" dream of.

Dirran Skytower

Most game designers (Creative Assembly, CCP, WoW, Firaxis, the vast majority of Steam releases) do simultaneous Wndows and Mac releases. That's really only happened over the last 12 months so Linden Labs probably have not heard about it yet. If you offer Linden Labs a cup of coffee they get back to you in 2 or 3 years about whether they take sugar.

They will think about a Mac viewer for 2 or 3 years, then decide it's all in the too hard basket. I will not be buying a Windows machine that I would only ever need for Sansar.

Dirran Skytower

I went to my Steam account, set up a random list of 100 games and started counting. 93% offer a Mac version. 91% released both versions simultaneously.

Iggy

No Mac viewer, no Iggy. See you in SL until they pull the plug.

Issa Heckroth

Sounds more and more to me like Sansar is aimed squarely at the "VR headset Crowd". Not interested.

joe

1000 LL dollars will equal 1 Sansar dollar. How iw that for a money maker?

You heard it here first.

Cathartes Aura

So, the “brain trust” at LL thinks Sansar will be a great success. Limiting who gets in first – beta users(Linden Pets), rigging the land market to benefit the largest landowners, limiting creation within SL2 to only those with access to Maya(no inworld creation tools now or lets all be honest – probably never), And high entry costs for anyone considering running a “business” within SL2.

So, take that old, worn out, tattered SL playbook and double down on it. Rig Sansar economically even more than SL is. Sounds like a absolutely brilliant idea to me. All us “little guys” will just have to go along with this. We have no other choice… lol!!! ;)

Unless LL makes SL2(Sansar) exactly like SL was prior to Fall 2006 where everyone was on a level playing field. Creation wise and land cost wise. No favorites. Then SL2(Sansar) is DOA… Smelling like a week old bit of roadkill. Perfect for us buzzards. But not too appetizing for the average joe resident.

The Turkey Buzzard goes hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiissssssssssssssssssss! ;)

P. Gibbs

The region pre baking part is quite understandable if you look at it a bit more in depth.
Sansar is aimed to be a VR platform, that has been stated quite a lot of times now (which also explains why there won't be a mac released anytime soon since none of the new HMDs (afaik) have support for it) and for a VR platform to work properly you need a steady rate of at least 90 fps so you won't get nausea using it.
but here's the thing, it is 90 fps for 2 screens with 1080x1200 pixels each (‎equivalent of 2160x1200) that's a lot of GPU usage.
if you ever played CS GO or The Stanley Parable, or any other Source engine game they usually run smoothly even on low end computers, that's because most of the shadows and lights on it are pre baked, you computer doesn't have to calculate what the lights are shining on for every frame, that also gives a somewhat more static feel to your scene, but you can counter that with cube map reflections or something similar (which I really wish SL had...)
if that's all he meant with the baking part it should be fine, but if that also means people won't be able to build stuff together that's quite a low blow

Pamela


Guess I won't have to wonder whether to expand my 4 sim store to Sansar or not, since Mac users will not be welcome. I never for a moment imagined LL would exclude Mac users, don't know why I am suprised at anything they do.

(I had no intention of using VR equipment as a creator, either, regardless of whether it was compatible with Mac.)

JohnC

How about a survey of Mac using content creators who are currently active in SL, to ascertain just how many more long suffering SL users this “no Mac support” will kill off.
Now that would be interesting I imagine.
You would of course think that LL would have done a bit of market research themselves in this area. Perhaps they have already sorted out that Mac users are in the minority so they can jettison them without much loss. Or maybe they are stupid enough to have got so caught up in the pathetic hype surrounding these VR headsets, which are at present just rich kids toys, to the extent that they for got to check which branch it is they are sitting on before they begun sawing away with vigour. Surly not.

Carlos Loff

Naiiii, not for me

Wolkenreiter

People who read this blog are obviously not the target audience for Sansar...
Sansar needs people who see opportunities, while I only see comments about problems, here...

Clara Seller

Every business on the entire planet wants customers who don't see problems, but it's impossible to see opportunity when the door is shut and locked in your face.

Betting the farm on a something that requires very expensive unproven hardware, an operating system that is testing the boundaries of it's users tolerance, and dividing your own dedicated base... what could possibly go wrong?

JohnC

People who read this blog are obviously not the target audience for Sansar...
Well obviously not, but don't you think that one of the oldest blogs that has reported on and supported SL and LL since the beginning, might contain one or two readers who might have been around long enough in SL to have a valid opinion on the activities of a company that have been, and still are, gladly taking their money and using it to fund this currant project.

Dartagan Shepherd

@Wolkenreiter Well, seeing opportunities is one thing, Sansar gaining traction is another.

Some of us are already doing everything Sansar will capable of (and more) and have been for quite a while with game engines.

The only plus Sansar will have going for it over game engines is that it will have a built in currency and that LL will host the "game".

That may appeal to people on a more amateur level who don't want to be bothered with their own networking and hosting solutions.

I don't see LL currency as a big draw. Out here in game engine land we can roll our own currency or just use real money without having to split the profits on currency with LL.

The downside to LL hosting your game is that you'll have to deal with the monthly hosting fee from LL, along with the limitations that they have imposed. They're certainly not going to let Sansar users have unlimited bandwidth for $50/month.

For existing game developers using pro/amateur tools already, these "bonuses" could end up being extremely limiting.

Those non SL people have already seen opportunity and have been using tools all along on both pro and amateur level to build better than what Sansar will be capable of.

It also sounds like you're back to needing their client software. Game/experience developers aren't going to be crazy about that, depending. If it looks like someone elses game client, it doesn't look like your product, it looks like your product in someone elses wrapper.

Sansar seems to want the amateurs that find game engines too difficult and SL too limited. A niche of a niche of a niche.

If they don't appeal to SL users and don't appeal to game engine users, Ebbe interviews aren't going to put it on the map any more than Ebbe interviews draw in mass SL users.

JohnC

If you create anything in Unreal, Unity, Cry Engine etc.etc. it is remains your product, they do not try to claim credit for your creativity. You can spend years in SL creating whatever you like, but it will never be anything more than something created in SL, owned by LL. They are actually just sellers of virtual space, a hosting firm based on an out of date engine which they have done little more than service for many years. And yet they sell themselves as a "Virtual world", but that world does not exist apart from the very creative people who have created it for them.
The Sansar plan seems to be to "Democratize" VR game and app creation, which implies a simplified version to attempt to undermine the Bigger game engines and cream off users who, as Dartagan mentions, cannot face the extra work of creation from scratch in another game engine. This is not a bad idea, except who might be these users, well surly they would be their own long suffering community in SL, humm. Problem is if you are now good enough to be a content creator in Sansar with meshes, materials, C# etc. you are good enough to work in any of the other game engines. And if so, why would you choose one with a bad reputation and absolutely no kudos in the games industry. I may be wrong, apologies if I am, but I don't see them on the listed exhibitors at GDC, High Fidelity are, why must they always act like some crazy outsiders, is Sansar still so far back in the woods that they have nothing at all to show at the premium VR show on the planet. How can that be when they say that it will be released by the end of the year.

Issa Heckroth

@Wolkenreiter - Well then I guess nobody here, on SLU or in the SL forums is the target audience then. Because the tone of the conversation is the same everywhere. A few seem to feel positive, but most peoples reactions seem to range from "meh" to "AARGH!". Mostly "meh".

When LL announced Sansar, Ebbe actually said "Like SL but better" multiple times. Yet now we find out that its actually nothing like SL AT ALL.

My concern is LL are aiming at a market which simply does not exist yet, and I doubt will be significantly bigger by the end of the year at the proposed beta launch.

Like I said over at SLU, I have spoken to lots of people about VR goggles from hardcore gamers right down to my mum and her friends and everyone seems to say there is no way in hell they would consider wearing one on a regular basis. Not in the form they exist right now.

30 mins? fine. 3 hours? No frickin way.

People seem FAR more enthused for AR (augmented reality a la Hololens) than VR.

Plus the price-tag needs to come waaaaay down to under the $300 mark. "Normal" people are not going to spend upwards of $600 AND probably have to buy a new PC on top of that.

I dont know what this means for LL, but I get the feeling they will be caught between chasing a market that doesn't exist while at the same time making NO effort to bring over the users of their most successful product, who are familiar with VR to some extent AND have tolerated all of LLs bad decision making so far.

I hope I am wrong about all this. If Sansar is a success then SL will likely continue on for many years, but if it flops all bets are off.

sirhc deSantis

The lab really did go off a bit half cocked with the 'like SL only better' nonsense which lasted about - 30 seconds? :) So yeah, current SL users are not the target yadda yadda and so what? We weren't that for patterns (?) but remember the sky is falling then as well? I agree, if it takes off, good (also can i have a 5 dollar vr headset). If it fails, then will worry about SL.
And if you really want to see how 'not wanted' sl'ers can be, go read the hifi mailer where any mention of SL like stuff leads to frothing at the - keyboard. Great fun

And @JohnC - what makes you think people are not already using stuff they learned elsewhere? Hell, even I have Unity installed along with a few others plus a Squid account :) And can we put to rest all this 'all your base are belong to us' BS purrrlease - until the lab magically reaches across the intertubes and takes the daes, source files, maps, textures from my photos and all the other bits of my stuff, I can and will do with it what I want where I want =^^=

Pamela

Would like to see a poll about what percentage of creator/merchants use Mac.

Han Held

"Sansar needs people who see opportunities, while I only see comments about problems, here..."

Blindfolded chumps with more dollars than sense, in other words?

I couldn't agree with you more!

JohnC

sirhc deSantis "what makes you think people are not already using stuff they learned elsewhere"
I don't recall saying anything that implied this, I just pointed out that, however you created it, however clever you believe yourself to be with whatever software you used to create whatever it was you uploaded to SL, once you do, LL own whatever it is you uploaded. What do you think all the fuss was about a short while back when they changed the TOS to say exactly this.
"until the lab magically reaches across the intertubes and takes the daes, source files, maps, textures from my photos and all the other bits of my stuff, I can and will do with it what I want where I want =^^="
Maybe you don't understand, No one has to reach anywhere to "take" your stuff. The reason most professional designers steer clear of SL/opensim,opensource software, the reason most professional resource providers don't allow their stuff to be used there,(a fact totaly ignored by many SL so called content creators" is because the moment you upload anything it is in the hands of the owner of the server, all of it. It's not encrypted or encoded, it's all just there for the taking, by the owner or anyone with half a brain who can hack it out. Which is what happens all the time. Of course you will hear a great many people say " who cares", that's usually because their stuff is not worth taking, or it's already stolen, which is the case for much of the content of SL.

zz bottom

My builds i do upload them to open sim and Sl, even if they are used only on the latest.
I no way Liden lab can claim ownership of the ones i don't upload to SL.

JohnC

Yep, no worries there, if you don't upload it then it's all yours.

joe

Children and amateurs think everything is great and can't see problems.

People who have experiences simply know crap when they see it.

nuff said

Robin J Warner

LL isnt concerned with what its customers think, the we built it we enjoy it crap, all they care about is the all mighty dollar so even if they lose half their customers , they assume they will make up for it with big pockets.. dont really care anymore, wont bother.. good ridens to them.

joe pozzuto

There are already platforms out there for vr.
Theirs high Fidelity and guess who is at the heart of that project!!
Philip Rosedale
The founder of secondlife Has created a virtual world for VR Headsets and for PC'S alike.
There is a familiar look to in-world building with primitives and if your more adventurous you can import your own creations.
not only that you have total control of your assets. As it is you that Hosts them.
Scripting is done in Javascript. and its easuer to use than C# so has an advantage.

But unfortunatly you do need a high spec PC. As you will do for any world that has a High Level of detail
But LL are definatly not the first to come out with the idea.

High fidality is free and open source
I wonder what LL are doing with Sansar that it will give sansar the edge.
And to say linden labs are market leaders is ok for sl
But Philip Rosedale and his team are pioneers and are already on the road to succes.

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