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Friday, April 18, 2008

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melponeme_k

This article was a joke right? I sure to hell hope so.

So women must train men? We must take the high/low road and be responsible for every little detail?

Is that a relationship then? Why be in one at all?

It is to laugh.

Men go to this avi and others like her because they want to. There is no shame in admitting that. It isn't because there is no sex at home or any other lame brain excuses. They want to do it and they get off on paying for it. End of story. There is no training to stop that. If it bothers a woman they should find someone else.

Korayama Savard

I was wondering if her views are based just on her customers or men in general?

Luce Imaginary

No one can get "her" [mmph mmph] because "she" doesn't have one. She has pixels on a screen. That's it. And her knowledge of "men" is limited to that as well: pixels on a screen.

Oxytone

I wonder how many women will call this bullshit versus how many men. As a man, there's a ton she's hit right on the head, but I also think that men often look towards the next best thing (as in, my babe's hot, but I bet there's an even hotter chick I can score). From a gay perspective, I really do wonder how monogamous humans really are since there are a LOT of open gay couples out there.

Lienna Jael

Wow, good to know we've come all the way from objectifying women to objectifying men and getting a hero biscuit for it. If there was another article out there (and I'm sure that there is) on How To Train Your Woman, there'd be a veritable mob of people lining up for a good ol' fashioned stoning.

Neither men nor women are "trainable", not in the sense that Lillie Yifu seems to mean. We learn. We're not morons who'll sit up for a treat. And we are ultimately responsible for our actions. Men aren't pets to train, nor should anyone attempt to take responsibility away from them. It's very easy to say it's someone else's fault, "this is biological—it's in my genes", to pretend that someone or something else controls your unacceptable behavior. Once you lose individual responsibility, say good bye to individual rights.

We do remember that lesson, don't we, ladies?

Maria Rimbaud

Lienna has it right. The article Lillie wrote was really insulting both to women and to men. According to Lillie, women's sexuality is a commodity that should be doled out or not to reward or punish men's behavior. Perhaps women should view their sexuality as part of themselves, part of their whole beings, and to be enjoyed and honored--as opposed to a chip in some kind of everlasting bargaining session. In addition, Lillie's article seemed to suggest that women *only* want sex at certain times of the month, and don't want or enjoy sex with our partners unless our hormones dictate it. Absolute baloney!

Lillie's article insults men by insinuating that men are incapable of making moral choices despite what their hormones dictate. As Lienna said, men are human beings with agency. Men are no more obliged to cheat sexually when they're horny than they are to physically attack and punch out anyone who makes them angry--despite the fact that our evolutionary makeup enables them to do so. Cheating is a choice, and to say it isn't denies men their agency as human beings.

Lillie Yifu

I see I have sinned, and my sin is telling too much of the truth.

I didn't say that sex is a commodity to be doled out, quit the reverse, I said that if we want the man in our lives to be faithful, then we need to think of the world from his view point. Particularly when we are asking for things that he does not want to do normally.

Men chase the things they want, they put forth effort to get them. That is one of the things that make them men, and much of what gets done in this world is because a man sees something he wants, in reality or in his imagination, and chases after it. Yes you can break a man of that, but you have then also broken something essential about him.

The way to keep a man faithful, therefore, is not by making him feel bad for chasing skirts, but by making sure the skirt he is chasing is yours, and he gets to catch it if he chases well. It is an old adage but not without it's truth: a man chases a woman until she catches him. And this is easy if you make having sex, rather than getting sex, the foundation of your sexual relationship with him. Men think about getting sex much more than women, but they aren't any better, and my experience says that most of them are worse, at having sex. I can't count the number of times a man has IM'ed me saying "I want sex with you!" And, then, when I ask what he wants to do exactly, he's at a loss for words. It's in the hundreds of times, and probably thousands.

The opposite situation is if he decides that what he does does not matter, then that is the moral judgment he is going to draw, and he will behave accordingly. He will look for the signs of getting lucky, and being a man, he will start to see them not just in one woman, but in every woman he meets.

My main message is that if you privilege getting sex, over having sex, then the marriage or the relationship will devolve down to the very destructive games that I see as bringing people to me. Where as, if you privilege having sex, in the context of being together and doing things together, then the man will work very hard to play that game. But shut down a man's drive for sex, his search for the erotic? There is a word for that, and that word is eunuch.

So the choice is up to others, you can pretend that people don't have sex drives, you can pretend that people don't put their time where it is rewarded, and you can pretend that whims and hormonal tides don't have a very large effect on how we behave, or you can enjoy the erotic charge running a relationship, where even such mundane activities as picking up the shared bedroom become part of foreplay.

Women can hope that she can beat the man out of her man, but there won't be a man left. On the contrary, and I know this because it happens all the time, that men who restrain themselves from cheating will find other ways of waving their cocks in women's faces, and they will take their contempt out on women one way or another. We should not expect otherwise, treat a man's efforts with contempt and disregard, and that is how you are training him to look at all women.

It's up to us, because it is we who teach men how women respond to their efforts, and which efforts are rewarded, and which ones are not. Teach a man that it is all about getting lucky, and that is what he will do. But with the internet, it is much easier to get lucky, and it has never been all that hard. Teach a man that his masculinity is appreciated, and appreciated in ways that reach to the very core of his desires, and he will put that masculinity to work in very pleasing ways.

Rusalka

Because SL allows us to keep chat and IM logs, I'm able to go back and read the dialogue. Which I frequently do. As an aid to memory and therefore to understanding relationships, it's more than a little useful.

Admittedly, my SL experience is not anywhere near as extensive as is Lillie's, but I do notice a pattern. I notice that the way we think about sex is bundled with other things in our minds and lives. (This fits with my more extensive rl experience.) Past experiences shape what and how we think about sex, romance, relationship, etc. Identifying those experiences and the shapes they take in an individual's internal landscape - first and foremost my own - interests me and matters to me.

I've also noticed that the men in my SL romantic life associate certain behaviours and cues with pleasurable interactions. With me. I appreciate courtesy. I appreciate wit. I appreciate people who can help me solve a problem. I appreciate people who share my values. I find people - men and women - who exhibit these qualities, and I am inclined to be their friend ... to explore reality with them. RL and virtual. My responses initiate a positive feedback dynamic, encouraging more of the behaviours I value.

Lillie's observations about men and women always give me something to consider and often deepen my understanding of myself and the people I get to know.

Jaymin Carthage

Lillie's observations are based on the behavior of men she has encountered. I'm sure it's accurate from that point of view. But I think her mistake is to generalize things and assume that all men are like the men she has encountered. There's a lot of men out there who aren't chasing Lillie's [mmph mmph] to whom this generalization probably does not apply.

Maria Rimbaud

Lillie, don't say that you didn't talk about sex as a "reward" that you dole out to someone for doing "things that he does not want to do normally" when those are the very words you used. Bestowing sex on someone (i.e., paying them) to get them to do something they don't want to do sounds to me pretty much like the definition of treating one's own sexuality as a commodity.

Please point out where I or anyone denied the existence of sex drives, whims, or hormones. I also never denied that human beings have evolved to have certain drives and to go after what we want. However, the choices we make are the greater part of what makes us human. The fact that a man's monkey brain might go "ook" when he sees a sexy person that he's not married/partnered to doesn't mean that he has to go have sex with that person, no matter how horny he is! If he cheats, it's because he chooses to do so. It's not because his wife/partner did or didn't do something. All of the reasons he may or may not be happy or satisfied in his committed relationship are aside from the point--those are issues that are his responsibility to address with his partner. But if he cheats, it's because he, as a human being with agency and the ability to make decisions, chooses to cheat. Do you see my point?

Furthermore, in my opinion, if a man has to be sexually bribed into behaving like an adult who realizes that un-fun tasks like housework need to be done and that it's his responsibility to help with it, that man isn't worth having. If my expecting him to not treat me like a domestic servant causes him to have contempt for me (!) and go out and wave his dick in some other woman's face (!!) and have contempt for all women as a result (!!!), then I'd say that man isn't worth having. In fact, I'd say that that's the kind of man any sane woman would say good riddance to!

Lillie, your "sin" (your word choice) wasn't speaking too much truth; it was speaking sad, stunted nonsense. Real men, men who are worth having in your life, don't view their partners with contempt! They view their partners as friends, lovers, and equals. Men worth having don't have to be "trained" or sexually bribed into acting like adults who do what's expected of adults.

As far as I'm concerned, sex in a committed relationship should be a joy, that happens naturally out of love for each other and enjoyment of the act itself. That kind of love and respect can't grow and flourish if one partner has to constantly wheedle and sexually manipulate the other in order to get them to step up and do what they should be doing anyway. If that's what you have to do to keep your man faithful, then he is seriously not worth having.

Rumblelizard

Also, good point Jaymin.

Lillie Yifu

"Lillie, don't say that you didn't talk about sex as a "reward" that you dole out to someone for doing "things that he does not want to do normally" when those are the very words you used. Bestowing sex on someone (i.e., paying them) to get them to do something they don't want to do sounds to me pretty much like the definition of treating one's own sexuality as a commodity."

No dear, you are the one who treats sex as a commodity, one to be denied.

Lillie Yifu

"Lillie's observations are based on the behavior of men she has encountered. I'm sure it's accurate from that point of view. But I think her mistake is to generalize things and assume that all men are like the men she has encountered. There's a lot of men out there who aren't chasing Lillie's [mmph mmph] to whom this generalization probably does not apply."

Hmmmmm. The generalizations that I make may not be the ones people like, but let me put some rl facts to them.

Between 50% and 70% of partners, men and women, have an affair during their marriage. The rate for women having affairs is rising to the point where it is only somewhat below the rate of men having affairs. That's rl sex, not even beginning to count electronic afffairs which do not end in sex. (Source: Sexual Arrangements: Marriage and the Temptation of Infidelity Reibstein and Richards 1993)

The specific cause of divorce is infidelity in 17% of US divorces, according to the Associated Press.

According to Adamse in the book he co-authored with Sheree Motta, Affairs of the Net: The Cybershrinks' Guide to Online Relationships (2000) stated that the vast majority of time spent in chatrooms was romantic.

I could medigeek at you about the neurology, psychological statistics and so on, which say tht if sex happens only when the woman wants it to, it won't happen as much as the mans wants it to, and by quite a bit.

Against this are... well a set of unsubstantiated and self serving statements and demands that the "it will just happen" myth can be allowed to save everything. The statistics, and medical evidence, says very much the contrary. The reality is that study after study shows that the keys to a long lasting marriage are realistic expectations of the other partner, and good inter-personal skills.

One example of a bad interpersonal skill is insisting on being right based on no evidence and self-serving demands. So Maria can keep having sex with her spouse when she feels like, and her spouse can have sex with his lover when she does not. Statistics show that 80% of women are unaware of their husband's affairs. And again, that is real sex, not even counting cyber dalliances and relationships which, while they are emotionally unfaithful, are not consumated into being physically unfaithful.

According to Sarah E. Bailey, in her recently published study on infidelity, the main cause of infidelity is lack of communication, which is precisely what the "it will just happen" myth is all about.

So the evidence indicates that having unrealistic expectations of your partner, belittling manner of speech, and poor communication leads exactly to infidelity. I am very sorry that so many people are so angry and taking it out on me. But then, their husbands do to. That is really the thing that saddens me, how much unresolved anger there is out there, not just in America, not just in the developed world, but in many places. People take what comfort they can in such an environment, but anger, denial, and bargaining won't make one small dent in the wall that separates so many people in this day and age.


melponeme_k

Keep going Ms. Yifu. I haven't laughed this hard in awhile. I often wonder what life would be like without the benefits of feminism. You give good examples of that world.

Relationships are for people who work together. Not for one to keep giving or training and another to take. Then the taker can feel entitled to fly off the handle and have affairs. All while blaming the other party who doesn't UNDERSTAND them in the way they need to be understood. Or train them like dogs on leashes.

As far as rampant infidelity, most of these people probably shouldn't even be married. It baffles me why they do if they value their sexual freedom so. No one is being forced into that arrangement.

Hamlet Au

Disagreement is fine, all, but please keep it civil.

Maria Rimbaud

Lillie, you know nothing about my relationship with my partner, and to assume (and expressly state!) that he is having affairs is the height of incivility. If that's the best defense of your opinions that you can come up with, then you've basically jumped the shark, darling.

Of course I talk about the fact that people use their sexuality as a commodity. I don't deny the existence of people who use sex as a commodity--the fact that you and many others are commodifying your sexuality for Lindens on Second Life proves that incontrovertibly. I just think it's a bad idea to do so in a committed relationship.

Disagreeing with you doesn't mean that I'm angry at you and taking it out on you. It just means that you aren't the only one who has the right to state her opinion. I still think you're dead wrong, but I'm not going to suggest that your partner (if you have one, I don't know) is cheating on you. You see, I'm not that rude.

And right on, melponeme_k.

Lillie Yifu

I only know what is obvious to everyone reading this thread dear, that you are either very constipated, or very sexually frustrated, or both.

Rumblelizard

Go on with the ad hominem attacks, darling. They reflect much worse on you than on me. You have yet to substantively address any of the things I have said; all you can come up with are nasty little digs and non sequiturs arguing against points that I never made and things that I never said.

You've also made a good many very unwarranted (and wrong) assumptions about me, my sex life, and my relationships. It's sad, not to mention the fact that it makes your very occasional lucid point completely unconvincing within the context of the rest of your drivel.

Good luck to you, sweetie. Someday I hope you start to think better of yourself, and of women, and of men. I doubt that you will, but here's to hoping.

Lillie Yifu

Dear I don't object to your wanting to abuse me, since that is clearly your bliss. But you really ought to pay, and we can do this someplace in private.

Rumblelizard

You're conflating disagreement with abuse, which explains your weird defensiveness and personal attacks. That explains a lot. Kisses!

Lillie Yifu

Am I Dr. Grohol?

Or is whore an approved Psychiatric term that I was not aware of?

Popcorn_Munson

Who does your hair?

Lillie Yifu

Influence.

Mother Superior

I find that most of these men who are cruising for sex in Second Life seem to think women get off with 'playing with themselves.' They actually thnk woman are masterbating while they feebley speak naughty little phrases or out rite vulgar expressions at these woman. How Dumb Is That? I do feel however, that some of these men could potentially be sexual preditors going after what they presume to be teen age females or males for that matter. Wouldn't it be amusing that the person they think is a nubile young thng is really a grandmother (or grandfather) who is laughting their ass off at the PC keyboard? LOL!!

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