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Friday, September 11, 2009


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Toxic Menges

.. and then the top popped off the can of worms...

Eirik Haefnir

Wonderful. I hope it becomes successful soon. It's time people learned to appreciate artists in SL.

Adric Antfarm

There has to be an easier way to alienate people.

Maybe an insult bot?

Crap Mariner

An update to that post:


Crap Mariner

BTW, He was supposed to be on Cypress' Monday show, but technical issues kiboshed the show.

Paisley will have him on her next show. Sunday @ 6PM SLT Northpoint, or Treet.tv for the stream.

Rock Ramona

yannooo....ive been waiting for something like this to surface,and here we finally are.this would be a great time for sl shoe designers to come out with bullet proof footware....ive been surrounded by the music biz since i was a small child,and have learned a whole lot over the years.my mother was a jazz singer who opened for people like nat king cole,the andrew sisters,she traveled and did huge USO shows eventually meeting a soldier,my dad,and settling down.when my brother and i became old enuff to perform,she always told us to bring it from deep within our souls,and to always make people happy with our gift that God gave us,and thats what we did.there is nothing more wonderful than to see someone perform and feel that for the price you paid ,you got a good show.i have no problem with paying to see good musicians play and sing.....what is currently bothering me about live music in sl is,you go to a show and you have 3 people constantly typing and begging for money for the performer and the venue,it has gotten to the point in some places where ive actually left because of these annoyances...now there are a few....yes i said a few performers in sl that deserve being paid for,these are the people who truly know how to put on a show....they change their song lineup...add new songs ..they truly perform,then there are a whole lot of folks singin the same songs,over and over and over,never changing,never even trying and still out there begging for money..and for the folks that run the venues....if you cant afford to pay for your sim because you are into this only as a way to make a quick buck,dont come beggging to the audience,if the audience is entertained,the audience will pay you and the performer..if you and the perfomer are finding their tip jars empty,then perhaps you need to look into the mirror instead of begging us to finance your fantasy...i am a lover of all music,and those in sl that know me,know this,and i speak the truth,instead of worrying about scripting a bouncer,maybe you should put all that effort into practicing your music and reading a few books on running a good business

Eric Coiffard

Yes, it's needed. I would love to see high quality acts performing all over 2nd life.

However, after 2 years of running the JSP venue, I closed my SIM -JSP Island- for the very reason of way too many bad performer acts knocking on my door...

I applaud Mankind Tracer for making this 'Bouncer Bot' payment system available and i'll support all efforts to bring the SL live music scene to the next level.

Feline Slade

Is now the time for this? Really?

I blogged recently that many of us who have supported the SL live music scene are statistics of the real life recession. Unemployment is still rising, and entertainment budgets are shrinking. Like it or not, money for Second Life (and that means tier, spending $L, tips, etc.) are part of the entertainment budget.

I question the wisdom of thinking that this is the best time to attempt to move live music performance in SL from a "pay what to you can" model to a "pay or go away" model.

Shouldn't the focus be put on finding new people to discover and enjoy live music? This seems more like putting barriers up... barriers that will shut out potential new audience members as well as some who have been loyal to the live music scene in the past.

Coyle Brenmann

I frequent live acts in SL when I can break away. I've found the same wide ability and talent within SL as I would in any local town. I too sigh at each chat request for "linden love" to support the club and performer, but as a business owner, I see nothing wrong with this practice. It's the amount of requests that determine whether it's done in good taste or bad.

Now, regarding the techincal aspects of the bouncer. It certainly doesn't seem fool proof. If the entire sim plays the performer's stream, you run the risk of booting someone that is there to shop and not watch the performance. Is that worth the $1L cover fee? This leads me to thinking that the club would have to have its own parcel boundaries to prevent booting a shopper on the sim. If the club then has its own parcel boundaries, then the artist is losing out on growing a fan base, because his/her performance is now limited to only those within the parcel boundary hearing the stream.

I'm sure Crap will sell this service or product, not quite sure if it's rented or purchased at this point. But it seems like denial of a failed business plan, more than anything else is creating a demand for such an idea. The majority of clubs operate in the red. A club owner who goes into this business for anything else but to host performances is only kidding him/herself. And using a bouncer to enforce payment for viewing isn't going to make the club profitable at $1L. The price of admission to make the club profitable, would keep most guests from returning. And then again, only the musicians within SL lose because of such practices. Hmm, maybe the musicians might rise up against such bouncers being used as they see their attendance diminish.

Metacam Oh

I love the notion that everything needs to be free. If the recession is too much for you maybe you shouldn't be sitting on Second Life with nothing to do. If you can't afford 275 linden, less than the weekly stipend maybe you shouldn't be wasting time hanging out on SL. It sounds rude and cruel in this day and age but musicians need to make a living too. If the demand isn't high enough for that particular musician then the numbers will show that, as for someone like Mankind, well worth the few linden, I routinely tip higher than that anyway.

Nexus Burbclave

I think this can work well for SLs established acts, however I think the majority of SL performers are buskers, and need to stick to the busking business model. For the most part, people aren't going to shell out money in advance unless they know the performer at least by reputation.

On a purely technical note, I wonder how this system is better than simply setting a price to enter in the land controls.

Metacam Oh

Nexus, I believe this system also splits the money with the musician and the venue owner.

ChiTown Streeter

Maybe a script mod' is in order? Let the newbies in for free. If the rez date is (maybe) six months old, give them 15 minutes to get a 'feel' for the entertainer. Then make the pitch for a donation. I tip. Some people don't tip at all. Entertainment is not free, even on SL.

Jura Shepherd

If it works, great. If it gets MT lots of press, great.

It just seems that all the hand-wringing over it saving/ruining SL music is misplaced. If you think of SL music as a scene, it's one that exist in a very small town (take a glance at the users logged on at any given time). The problem is that this small town has as many live music choices as a mega-metropolis would. Musicians and venues have to be exceptionally good, or make good use of the platform to really stand out in all of that and, even then, it's super difficult to reach new SL users.

So, kudos to MK for trying something but there are bigger fish to fry than who gets paid what and how.

Effie Emmons

This is really only one side of the story. There are many facets to this proposed model by Mankind Tracer. One of the big issues is that the charge system is actually administered by the venue which makes additional work for them.

Many artists and venue owners have been hashing this out on the live music forums. The comments there indicate that there are also a large number of people against this model.

Being a venue owner myself, I will not charge entrance fees to the shows at my place. I pay the musicians because I like to support live music. I would never think of charging people, especially my friends, who have lost jobs, can't afford to pay lindens, or newbies.

I feel that the root issue is that there are a huge number of live artists and live music venues in SL now. Therefore, everyone has competition. I think that the competition should just naturally work itself out.

Rock Ramona

Ty Effie,you have hit the nail on the head.I personally think the program itself is a great proggie,thing is...using it in the right place at the right time.yhe music sce3ne in sl has been a great thing for some people,there are artists that have come out of the basement so to speak that would hgave never done it in rl,this is awesome and the kind of people i support!!!!but sl is no differant from rl are far as making people money...ive supported tons of sl music acts by buying their cd s and tipping them when i had money tp tip,i just wish people would stop spamming the performances and ruining it for everyone.if people enjoy the music and the venue,they will spend money and return,its all very simple

Metacam Oh

As a venue owner you have every right to do what you want, but venue owning is almost more expensive then being the artist these days. If people can't monetize this then it will dissappear. If people don't want to pay 250L for said musician, they won't and thats that. To say its extra work for the venue owner is absolutely retarded. It must take a lot of effort to rez a prim for you guys i get it.

Richard Meiklejohn

I'm looking forward to this, since I won't be using it, when my band play hopefully more people will come to hear us.

Effie Emmons

Obviously, Metacam, you aren't a venue owner and do not know what it takes to run an event nor have you have the knowledge of what this system will take. What you commented basically relates to someone telling another that has no idea about the steps to make something that it is easy.

When I'm running an event, I don't even have time to hold a conversation with whom I am dancing. I'm setting music urls, troubleshooting issues, watching for griefers, telling everyone where the dance balls are, sending reminders for tipping the artist, watching the chat for numerous reasons, taking pictures when I have a spare moment, and attempting to keep up with any messages I receive.

In MT's own words, "Venue owners will need to do their part to assist in security ensuring that those who TP into the sim enter the venue and not attempt to bypass the "System". If this happens, the venue will end up losing money as well since they are receiving 20% of the cover. Mechanically, the venue will need to allow the artist to set out an object which detects when attendees enters a specific range. It's farily simple but I think the honor system will definitely come into play." Soooo, the venue manages the security issue and only gets 20% of the revenue. Interesting concept.

Richard, I agree with you. I think all this system will do is send more music lovers to the free events. :-)

FlipperPA Peregrine

As long as there aren't plans to create an RIAA-bot to keep 99% of the money while abusing the artists, I'm cool with this. :)

Johnny S

The only revenue model that seems to be working on the net at the moment is micro-payment - think about the iPhone App Store, and the developers getting rich selling rubbish to the masses at 99c a shot.

The problem with this model in SL is the lack of scalability - even if you can cram the theoretical 100 avatars on to one sim, you would have to charge them a lot more than the L$500 (which people seem to think is the most the market will bear) to make a decent return.

What you need is a world where a virtual impresario can charge 10000 people 25c to see whoever is making it big on YouTube that week. Blue Mars perhaps?

Hamlet Au

Yes, the biggest challenge for musicians is user growth and conversion rates of users willing to spend L$, IMO. Better monetization systems are great, but ultimately if you're still trying to monetize the 400K or so users who spend any L$, you'll only get so far.

Sioban McMahon

I've been running a venue (actually a cluster of them, for different kinds of events) for a little over two and a half years. I don't think most performers will be able to use this system effectively. Jaycatt and Nico, a few others, who have dedicated following, they'd do fine.

For most other performers, even really good ones, when people TP in and encounter the cover charge bot they'll tp out and go to a different concert that is free to attend.

I've said this multiple times on this blog and others, but I'll say it again. I don't think the vast majority of venues can make tier from tip jars or admission fees. Putting on events and concerts is a LOT of work but it has, to some extent, be a labor of love. You need another activity to pay the tier and other costs. In our case, we rent land. Land pays the tier and produces extra income that is combined with what is donated in the bins at events to make up our check to the charity each month. The land rentals allow us to have public areas on which to hold concerts, storytelling, the art gallery, and so forth. The events, then create community which keep the rentals filled.

Since community building is one of our goals in our circular model, I don't think we'd ever use the cover charge/bouncer bot. I do understand, however, that the talented people performing would like to make real world money for their in world performances. The reality of it, though, is that only a handful of performers will be able to do it.

Ann Otoole

All I can say is:

And if you are a club/venue with "DJ"s instead of "live performers": http://www.knowthemusicbiz.com/index.php/BIZ-WIKI/Licensing-&-Royalties/Public-Performance-Royalties-and-Licenses.html

Best of luck to all!

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