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Monday, September 27, 2010


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Maxx Nordlicht

Ehm... To Phoenix??

Missy Restless

Look around you. Of course it is subjective but my view inworld since the Emerald implosion has Phoenix tags on the vast majority of what were previously Emerald users. Imprudence still has media problems associated with GStreamer. When they complete a rewrite of their media subsystem and subsequently debug the new code it will make a good TPV candidate for those of use who require quality media playback.

Whimsy Winx

While Phoenix is comprised of former Emerald developers who left the remaining Emerald, are they to be considered Emerald? I think they should be considered as a stand alone just like Imprudence.
I think most people from what I can tell via major groups, and other social networks, they are using Phoenix, Imprudence, Kirstens. In addition many people had multiple viewers installed already at the time of "Emeraldgate" so there was no seeming influx of people to a pa
rticular viewer. They simply logged into what they already have. At the time I had, Emerald, Imprudence, Cool Viewer, Snow Globe, 2.0/2.1, and Kirsten's. I used each for different purposes. I suspect its the same situation. But I am interested in the numbers. Would Phoenix, and Kirsten's download numbers show the difference if we go by Emeralds posted numbers.

Scarp Godenot

I must say as a user of the 2.x browser, that I am amazed at how many people WILL NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES use the LL primary browser.

For shoppers and fashion people. The make outfit function and the invisible and tatoo layers are seriously indispensible. You are hurting yourself if this is what you care about.

Web on a prim is a major leap forward and so will mesh be. The TPVs will be way behind each and every new major development. Mostly because LL calls the shots.

That said, as far as I can tell, if LL would just change the linked sidebar to separate boxes, add a people radar, and get two click windlight settings at the bottom bar, they would rule again.

Why does LL ignore these major innovations? Is is that they don't know that these are the things that people most want? They should have known this for at least a year. A simple query of a hundred or so TPV users would point this out to anyone.

That said, there is no comparison about browser speed. 2.x wins hands down. Try it yourself.

I continue to sit on the sidelines and watch this play out. I say to Linden Lab: Why don't you actually find out what these people want most and put it in there?

Sorry, but it seems so simple to me.


I believe the number of Emerald users was exaggerated, one of those "facts" people like to repeat, but nobody is able to verify. In any case, I switched to Imprudence. I gave v2 a shot and it has its merits, but many more drawbacks. I see a lot of residents using it though. Phoenix also appears to be popular, but to me it carries the stain of Emerald. I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.

Hamlet Au

Emerald's daily usage was near 50%, my inside sources told me.

comoro Infinity

The Emerald user base was not there to begin with in the numbers previously reported. Feelings are your inside sources were inside the only place that could not speak for them reliably but had interest to paint a different picture.

The sensible move to Imprudence is a consequence of LL insisting on planning their future (sic!) on Viewer 2.0 What makes no sense still makes no sense today and, I believe, if SL will be there, will make no sense in the future.

Stephen Venkman

Uses several different viewers, but still can't make myself use viewer 2. I go back to the last release of the LL viewer before viewer2 was released or Imprudence. Just downloaded Kirsten and liked what i saw there as well.

Valentina Kendal

Observing client use during and after Emeraldgate in the places I frequent, I saw a spike in Viewer 2 and Imprudence users (including me) which was then replaced by a spike in Phoenix users (including me).

Scarp, I won't use V2, I hate it, just personal preference.

Ajax Manatiso

I did a little poll on my own of visitors to our Romance Garden and Emergence was the most popular of all followed by 2.0 and then Imprudence. It seems those who are less than 30 days old favor the LL viewer (or don't know about TPV) and the rest overwhelming went with Emergence (as I am my wife have). Its the most like Emerald. We tried Phoenix but it was crash-a-minute. Music suddenly sound like you are underwater and then --boing. The LL viewer has no radar which is absolutely necessary to monitors the going's on in a public sim. And for some reason I crashed a lot with Imprudence, to. Emergence seems solid as a rock for me and has all the bells and whistles I need.

Nalates Urriah

Scarp Godenot, you obviously are not following the Snowglobe Project.
The nightly builds of the Development Viewer have detachable sidebar panels and a configurable bottom menu. The list of changes underway is updated daily. The lab’s development teams have acknowledged the problems with the SLV2 series and are fixing it as quickly as possible. Some of the TPV Dev’s are helping and contributing code and ideas along with a collection of gripes. There is a lot to fix. But they plan to have weekly viewer updates. We are quickly coming to weekly updates of the server software.
The Snowstorm team is not ignoring lots of fixes, read the backlog list. They are moving through that list as fast as possible. You can add to it.
Surprisingly Scarp thinks the 2 series is faster… I think TPV’s with viewer based speed rez and working HTTP Get Texture are faster. Several Lab people are trying to sort out why HTTP Get Texture and KDU are not providing the speed enhancements expected in SLV2. The viewers up to and including 2.1.1 are slower than the 1.23.5 viewer in that regard. TPV’s are using SnowGlobe code and use several performance enhancements that work well for them but that haven’t yielded results as expected in SLV2.
I’m not surprised lots of people still don’t like SLV2. But, it is getting better and the Snowstorm team is working hard to organize resident feedback into a prioritized step-by-step development process.
Those that think SLV2 makes no sense are not paying attention to what is going on. The community has long wanted a better viewer. A huge step in getting there is cleaning up and making the viewer code much more modular. The render engine is being broken into a module separate from the user interface. That is in progress and starting with the SLV2 code that was much farther down that road. That is where the sense is in SLV2.
The stability of SLV2 goes up with each release. Residents have been screaming for years to stop adding new stuff and fix the damn bugs. They are doing just that now, for the viewer and server. The large majority of work is fixing things. The region crossing problems should be going in to a release candidate in Oct or Nov, may be next week.
The Lab, by all appearances, is changing. It may be too soon to say it is for real or permanent, but it is certainly revealing who is and is not paying attention.

Ignatius Onomatopoeia

While Web-on-a-prim could rock, showing up naked at a professional meeting does not.

I'm not switching to 2.x until I no longer see that happen to colleagues (all female so far). Say, does LL have a "voyeur" division?

Imprudence is my fave. I just used it today to visit Reaction Grid for an upcoming column, and the client is rock-solid. I've used it for a couple of other OS grids, and it even works well in SL.

Nine Warrhol

I've been using Imprudence primarily (the latest experimental release). It is rock solid and not as bug prone as Phoenix. It is a solid viewer for sure.

@Missy Restless: If you think Phoenix has no media issues, I invite you to have a look at the Phoenix support chat..its very hobbled for many users in that respect, and voice as well. Tons more issues than Imprudence that I've seen.

Nickola Martynov

I've downloaded Imprudence again just recently, but I only use it for InWorldz and other opensim environments. In SL, I'm using Phoenix now and am very happy.

For people having crashing problems with Phoenix, check the website. Some processors need a patch that is there for downloading.

Mr. Ed

I am a former Emerald user, who hated LL v2 not because of the underlying code, which is superior to snowglobe's, but because of the crappy UI. When Emerald imploded, I tried Imprudence but hated it because it was like taking a giant step backwards in the way it handled graphics. For instance, floor textures which rendered just fine in any other browser went wonky, and this is just one example. When Phoenix came about, I went there and have not looked back since. And I'm hungrily anticipating what they're going to do with the Snowstorm/Firestorm code base!

brinda allen

@Scarp Godenot
OK, I'll continue to punish myself. I see no way in H*** i'll ever use 2.ought oh.

@Hamlet... Many of us promptly went to Emergence.
Personaly I'll wait a bit..and likely end up on Phoenix.
I have downloaded imprudence as well.

@Nalates Urriah, If it were any other company but Linden Lab I would wonder why they would commision such a drastically different UI...makes no sense..have any nooblet try both 2.ougtht oh and 1.23.5 and see what they say.
You guys that love 2.ought oh....well, gosh I'm happy for you.

Paisley beebe

I'm still seeing emerald users in second life. Probably using the cloaked version.

GoSpeed Racer

When the day comes that 1.x viewers can no longer access the grid I wonder if the holdouts will use a text client as a protest?

Little Lost Linden

"So Where Did Emerald's Huge Userbase Go?"

Arabella opened up her mouth and swallowed the entire user base. That's just how she rolls...

And even Bill Paxton could not have predicted that.

Ignatius Onomatopoeia

@GoSpeed...wooooooo SLMOO. I'm in.

Little Lost Linden

"Imprudence Downloaded Over 33K Times Since Emerald Implosion -- So Where Did Emerald's Huge Userbase Go?"

The rest of the userbase was all bots.

Trinity Dejavu

Everyone went to phoenix, but haters gonna hate.

@Scarp Godenot - We dont use Viewer2 because its hard or different. We don't use it because it has not been designed with multi tasking in mind. Even now you can rip the side bars off its just as poor. I do not ONLY shop or ONLY explore or ONLY dance.

Yes V2 is shiny under the hood. Whoopie frikin do, as end user, I really don't care.

So far Snowstorm has delivered nothing but UI tweaks. It's still viewer 2 and it still sucks for all the same usability reasons.

Dale Innis

Hey, ask your inside source! :) Presumably Imprudence and Phoenix and some V2 and some back to V1.2x, and... Is this a trick question?

Tried V2 again, still don't like it. Being able to tear off things from the sidebar (and, ehem, having to put them back on in order to close them), is better than the original V2, but still worse than V1.

And tattoo and alpha layers? Imprudence has them, tyvm...

Thaiis Thei

I am using Phoenix. I tried Imprudence but every time I teleported it reset my draw distance to an undesirably low number.

Little Lost Linden

"Imprudence Downloaded Over 33K Times Since Emerald Implosion -- So Where Did Emerald's Huge Userbase Go?"

The remainder of the userbase was a very sensitive bunch, so they went to Planet Michael.


Where did all the Emerald users go? They went and downloaded Phoenix. LOL!

Nea Rexie

I like many new features in 2.x like favorite toolbar and better outfit tools. Still I can't live without temporary textures, spell-checker, breast physics and the radar. If LL implements these features I will go to 2.x.


After using outfits and saying goodbye to invisiprims, any time I try a 1.something based viewer it seems like going back to the dark ages.

So please LL and all you other 2.something contributers... go go go!! :)

Rin Tae

When emerald viewer imploded I first thought it would be imprudence that will get adopted as the main viewer for many people. I treid it myself and while it is a nice viewer I wasn't really for me. I went to emergence and after that to Phoenix as emergence isn't being developed further.

From my observations so far the overall numbers are leaning towards Phoenix as the viewer adopted by the majority of the former emerald users (if I remember correctly it had over 45.000 downloads some time ago ago). After all there are a lot of them and while the former emerald devs have in my opinion not overestimated the use of teh viewer they have for sure overestimated the feelings people have towards them. From what I have seen the majority switched viewers without a second thought (and I can't blame them since I did the same ^_^).
If the viewer support groups are a indication of the number of users the viewer has then it is:

Phoenix: 4905 members
Imprudence: 479 members

Both are great but I am very happy with Phoenix .. it is fast, so far extremly stable and has the features I like to use plus what was introduced by v.2.

Now of course the development of viewers does not stop and both LL and the TPV developers are working on new versions of their creations. The v.2 code based Phoenix is being build already and the snowstorm project is making good progress too. So I guess that viewers will always change and there wont ever be one definitevly best for everyone.

Zarkinfrood Miami

I had initially tried every viewer I could find after the Emerald ban,and ended up(for a short time) switching back to the 1.x SL viewer. Once all the bugs were worked out of Phoenix, I jumped ship.
I see nothing inherently wrong with Imprudence, but from a building standpoint, Emerald(or Phoenix) has a lot of little things that I tend to miss in other viewers. Sure - I could build and script in another viewer, but for me it's the difference between driving a Yugo(viewer 2), a decent domestic car(Imprudence), or a Ferrari. I'll take Imprudence out to the store to pick up a gallon of milk, but I want to cruise SL in style.

Ron Overdrive

@Thaiis: Imprudence has a feature called Speed Rez that lowers your draw distance to 32 and incrementally increases it over 12 seconds (the default) to your original draw distance to speed up scene rendering. This of course can be disabled in the Advanced Preference Tab.

Ron Overdrive

@Paisley: Actually most of them just haven't Rebaked their clothing. The Client Tag ID is placed in an unused layer.

Adeon Writer

I see a fair mix of Phoenix and Imprudence. A tad more of Phoenix, at least in the Office Hours crowd. And of course, most don't see the Emergence tag, which are are an invisible percentage which will most likely upgrade to Phoenix eventually.

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