How Widespread is the Redzone IP Tracking Controversy in Second Life? (UPDATED)

2/28: Important update at bottom of post.

There's a low boil Second Life imbroglio over Redzone, a popular detection device that's designed to block users of Copybot content theft software, including any alternate avatar accounts they might use. (So for example, if you ban a Resident suspected of using Cobybot from your store, he can't come back minutes later with an alt account.) The controversy stems over how Redzone determines who has an alt account: By using a feature in Second Life's media streaming service to track a user's IP address. Some in Second Life consider Redzone a violation of their privacy, and consequently, there is a painfully long comment thread in a JIRA technical support request, created by Residents demanding the Lindens deem Redzone a violation of the company's Terms of Service. You can also get an anti-Redzone perspective from a blog post by Avril Korman, "Second Life Erupts In a War Over Privacy". As many

However, it's unclear how much of a "war" this controversy actually amounts to: The JIRA thread has less than 1500 "votes" from Residents who consider the request valid and important... which amounts to less than .002% of the active SL population.

In any case, the Lindens have deemed the complaint not worth any more consideration from the company:

"We do not consider IP gathering to be an actionable security exploit," Samuel Linden pronounced in a related JIRA ticket. Which should, you would think, settle the matter. But one still hears a rumbling discontent here and there. I can definitely say from experience that the controversy is not anywhere close to that raised by the 2006 Copybot panic, which temporarily brought Second Life activity to its knees. (Even though, on investigation, few if any seemed actually harmed by the program.)  Right now, I'm inclined to think it's a deep concern mainly to a vociferous minority who are vigilantly protective over their privacy. And, of course, Copybot and alt account users.

However, it's quite possible I'm missing something -- is there more to this than the sudden realization that Internet services generally make IP tracking quite easy? And while we're at it, how much of a concern is this for Redzone, the popular Second Life industrial band of the same name but no apparent relation to the program?

Oh yeah, before you weigh in with your comments about Redzone's IP address tracking software, keep in mind that if you post here, this Typepad blogging software lets me, well, track your IP address.

UPDATE, 2/28: As many readers point out in Comments, as significant a privacy concern as IP tracking (if not moreso) is the way Redzone is able to connect Second Life users with their alt accounts. While I'm still skeptical that this controversy is extremely widespread through the Second Life community, I regret not noting noting this aspect in the original post, and certainly didn't mean to downplay the legitimate concerns over this feature.

Comments

[Anonymous]

Interestingly enough, the custom viewer the creator of the JIRA issue uses is Phoenix. Not only does it log the IP, but also the login info.

[Wondering]

I believe the Vanity Universe skin fair is using this system. I was told and the person telling was not happy about it and thought it was an invasion of privacy.

[Talwyn Mills]

One of the big problems is, it simply is unreliable. You can ban someone by IP address but an IP address isn't necessarily a reliable way to identify a user. An IP address may be shared by multiple people in a house or halls of residence, might be assigned to an internet cafe or might be one of dynamic pool assigned by an ISP when a customer connects.

In those cases, someone totally honest may be decried as a copybotter simply because they happen to have been assigned an IP address which happend to have been used by a copybotter previously, and with no way to prove otherwise and, much more importantly, no authority to apeal to. (Does redzone share bans over its network? I can't say but if it does, this is a big problem).

Second, for those who have statically assigned IP addresses, what right does anyone other than Linden Lab have to know who anyones alts are?

Third, anyone who is copybotting is either going to be avoiding redzone detection (see http://no2redzone.wordpress.com/avoiding-redzone-3/) or a client not capable of media streams anyway, making the whole thing pointless.

I do find it amusing that redzone has removed the claim of infalibility from the marketplace advert, anyone with half a brain can see the problems with the system, but there are still enough people with the "if redzone says it, it must be true" mentality.

Here is my advice, don't waste your money.

[Rin Tae]

The whole affair raged on for some time and while there have been false accusation, name calling and lots of drama involved the isseu had some valid points to it. Especially the one of not asking any consent for scanning and sharing the alt names around. And of course some RZ users saying, that they 'have a right' to know the alts what of course is something rather silly to say.

But anyway. The issue was obviously big enough to force a reaction form LL in something that very much looked like the past 'emerald gate' affair. Again LL has worked in the background and then announced their ruling by saying:

------
Disclosure

Residents are entitled to a reasonable level of privacy with regard to their Second Life experience. Sharing personal information about your fellow Residents without their consent -- including gender, religion, age, marital status, race, sexual preference, alternate account names, and real-world location beyond what is provided by them in their Resident profile -- is not allowed. Remotely monitoring conversations in Second Life, posting conversation logs, or sharing conversation logs without the participants' consent are all prohibited.

http://secondlife.com/corporate/cs.php

--------

"alternate account names" is now included.

And something similar has been heard from the redzone side of the affair and the statement that has been posted as coming from the RZ creator(s). However I don't know where this particular statement can be found as I got it through other people but it seems right and is in line with what can be read on the website about consent to be scanned.

--------

Hello RedZone owners.
After talking with Linden Labs over the past month we have reached an agreement.
Effective now and retroactively the RedZone system will request Consent to display alt name information.
LL policy will reflect this change by tomorrow the 25th.
The zRZ HUD will now request consent much like a bloodlines bite.
The zRZ Website now offers a system to send an IM to request consent for a zF RedZone Alt Background check.
The system is already in place, new functions and consent methods will be offered as we discover how best to implement this feature.
Linden Labs has been good enough to suggest many ideas that settled on this one.
Alt names can still be viewed to settle disputes, run security background checks etc.
Please see http://isellsl.ath.cx/checkconsentinfo.php for more.

--------

That might put a stop to the drama and might also hinder any future use of devices like redzone that I don't think are any good in finding and reducing the use of copybot activities. But it is not a clear 'no' by the lab either so it is still to be seen if the drama will continue or if this will please both sides.

[Emperor Norton]

And to follow up Talwyn Mills points since Red Zone is so absurdly easy to defeat by the malicious users it officially targets what's its real point? That pretty much leaves tool for griefers to gather IP address of unsuspecting and computer naive residents to harass them.

[Fogwoman Gray]

The "privacy issue" is a pretty long stretch so far as it goes.
I do find it hilariously ironic that they are now required to use the same permissions technique as Bloodlines :) Neither product is particularly effective in what it initially claimed to do - but both have been apparently extremely effective in moving large amounts of money into the pockets of their creators!

[Kimberly Rufer-Bach]

Back when Robin Harper was still at LL, there was a requirement that Solution Providers follow certain rules about data collection. For example, people were to be informed their data was being collected, and they were supposed to be offered the opportunity to review a privacy policy. Sure do miss Robin.

[Opensource Obscure]

the point isn't in the IP tracking

the point is that this device lets people discover other users' alternate accounts

...

[Robert Galland]

I do not think it is the tracking of IP addresses that is at the heart of the controversy. I think most people know that occurs routinely when you choose to participate on the internet.

Rather, people object to the supplier linking IP addresses to alt avatar accounts and making that information available to RZ users. So, I am not sure the issue has been addressed in precise enough a manner by Samuel Linden.

[Lili]

How can we expect Linden Lab to really do anything about this? They are facebook crazed, like many others, and ready to sell everyone down the river. Facebook is the future, wherein no one will be allowed privacy. The facebook nazi creed of, "What have you got to hide?", will soon prevail in Second Life as well.

The problem for me, is more the insult factor of it. If you go to a friends home and another of his friends are there and proceeds to beat you up and your friend does nothing, why would you ever go back there. This is why I don't facebook and I think soon it will be my reason for leaving Second Life.

And people who are so blind to these problems, the ones who always come up with the jewel, " You're stupid, every website gets your IP address", are the same ones who willingly put their location on facebook as if nothing can ever happen to them. Yes, I get it also, every website has my IP address, but when they use a database to link everything they can possibly steal about me, like facebook, google and now this redzone creep; that's a crime! Don't respect privacy, fine, but don't expect me to respect you at all then.

How many of you are pulled aside for a background check when you go to the store to buy eggs? In most countries, I hope none yet, but it's coming people. Just continue being complacent and mocking everyone with any concern for freedom and privacy, then you'll be all ready when the nazis, sharia, republicans or who ever take over.

And the reason most people are not concerned in or out of Second Life--because 'baa baa' the sheep never notice the wolf until it's too late. And the herd is being told to spend, shop, have fun, buy, ignore the man behind the curtain, buy more stuffs, laugh at the person who won't click the facebook like button, give us your credit card number, buy buy buy. Most people in Second Life are not aware of this, but you can bet they've been scanned, cataloged and stuck in a database for when anyone wants to use their information against them.

[CiCi]

I find it ironic that in RL it is unlawful to falsely identify yourself as someone you are not (the same as an alt account) but in SL people act like it's a right. Personally I think the people insisting they have a right to anonymity are the threat and least trustworthy.

[Amused]

This really amuses me, Some people say it is the ALT accounts, God forbid you get caught in a Lie or in a 3rd (Partnered) or 4th (BDSM SLUT) life and Karma bites you in the butt with your 2nd life, others say No, No it is the IP Collection, Noone should have my IP, Which is collected on almost ANY website and every keystroke is collected as you surf the Net from Cookies Etc. I have alts (OMG!) and My partner Knows them, I have nothing to hide, and those that do, Well Good Luck, another way to track alts is right around the corner I'm sure (I'm Far from a scriptor but I know regardless of TOS there is Shady People all over) and you may not want to go Into Blogs or the CNN Website, Oh yea, Porn is a bad IP Collector, Recipe Websites, You Fav Fashion WWW Yeah them to, and for the Love of god, If you want your Privacy STOP Posting Your Personal Crap on Facebook, MySpace (Geezer), Twitter and Linked In..... Better Yet, Send Me your Computer and Don't buy a new one....*Smiles* Shakes Head and Walks away knowing this website NOW has my IP OMG!

[Lili]

"Oh yeah, before you weigh in with your comments about Redzone's IP address tracking software, keep in mind that if you post here, this Typepad blogging software lets me, well, track your IP address."
Ok Hamlet, but do you also go to virtual worlds and scan avatar's IP addresses, put them in a database, and tell anyone who asks which characters are on the same IP? And if that doesn't matter to you, it's funny that the new CEO of Second Life specifically mentioned avatar privacy in a recent interview. Not the one you did, but that other one that wasn't about facebook.

In Second Life, some people have avatars representing their real world person, some have truly fantasy avatars with no relation to the real world, like furries, and some have a mix of those they use at different times. The problem is, these people spend money to play a game, or just be in a chatroom if that's what they see it as. So they have no right to keep their characters private? It's a virtual world, not a courtroom. So who has the right to demand which user is behind which avatar?

As far as copybot goes, any copybotter worth worrying about is not going to get scanned in the first place, but even if they did it's not a USER's place to be the police. The policing should be the people who control the platform, Linden Lab.

As far as you or anyone else having my IP, what matters is what you do with it. In the real world my only concern is that you could see where I live. That would be a real problem, since I have a static IP that when you look it up, shows my location within 50 meters of my home. There is only one house even close to mine. But I use a paid VPN service to connect with other countries, so I don't have to worry about that. In Second Life, I use maybe ten different addresses to connect, depending on which is faster that day. So this redzone scum probably has me linked to a great many other avatars. I don't like that. You know my main avatar in Second Life, but my other one is not your business. To anyone else in Second Life, they only have a right to know the avatar before them. If this was not a game or it was a business, I would have no right to have other characters. I have a real world counterpart avatar and a purely fantasy (like warcraft) avatar in Second Life. It's not like it would kill me, but when I'm doing my fantasy me avatar, the real me avatar would take away from that. So for the "it's just an IP address" people, does that mean they have a right to also link in the world of warcraft character I used to have, the yahoo chat name I used years ago?

Once again, it's not having the IP address that matters, it's what you try to do with it. And in some cases, you can do a lot to mess up someones day. You can ruin a game avatar they worked hard on, or in the real world you could track them down. Either way, it shouldn't be allowed. And some countries and I think even california in the states are making laws to stop it.

[Nathaniel Scorpio]

Unlawful in RL to falsely identify yourself as someone other than who you really are? Uhm, not in the U.S. it isn't. Yes, there are laws against falsely claiming to be a police officer or falsely claiming to be a doctor, but that's hardly the same thing.

That's leaving aside the fact that there are plenty of things that are illegal in RL that are not illegal in SL and vice versa. As long as LL says it's okay to have alt accounts, there's nothing wrong with having alt accounts.

[Nathaniel Scorpio]

Unlawful in RL to falsely identify yourself as someone other than who you really are? Uhm, not in the U.S. it isn't. Yes, there are laws against falsely claiming to be a police officer or falsely claiming to be a doctor, but that's hardly the same thing.

That's leaving aside the fact that there are plenty of things that are illegal in RL that are not illegal in SL and vice versa. As long as LL says it's okay to have alt accounts, there's nothing wrong with having alt accounts.

[Wizard Gynoid]

Headline: "Hamlet reveals active SL population is only 75,000 avatars!" Hamlet's math above reveals that those 1500 votes are 2 percent of 75,000 active avatars. This should be big news, coming from one of SL's loudest advocates. (Only recently Hamlet was sticking to his 130,000 number for hardcore SL users.) Hamlet is ignoring the other 600 users who are "watching" this JIRA issue, despite the known fact that the Lindens don't care how many votes there are on a JIRA issue. There seems to be an implicit bias demonstrated here against those who object to the idea of harvesting IPs. I've been around here for almost four years and in all that time, an attempt by a resident to discover one's IP was considered to be an explicit violation of privacy and a clear violation of ToS. This is not to say that the Lindens don't know our IP. You would have to be an idiot to think otherwise. The difference is that we have to *trust* the owners of the platform to respect our rights to our creations and our private information. We don't trust other avatars to do that. Just because a Linden makes an announcement doesn't mean he's right or that this issue is closed. It is reasonable for us as users to be concerned about other residents harvesting our IP addresses. The fact that *only* 2000 avatars have expressed interest in this issue only suggests that a vast number of avatars don't even know the issue exists.

[soror nishi]

I thought that Rod, in a recent interview with Dusan, said he was in favour of residents deciding the degree of privacy they wanted. Another piece of hypocracy? or was he just mouthing what people want to hear, like Philip before him?

[Ordinal Malaprop]

I really don't think that anybody who can't tell the difference between the implications of a website being able to record self-identified (i.e. basically an/psudononymous) IPs if people choose to submit comments, and those of a system that collects IPs without awareness let alone consent which are automatically tied to a unique identifier, should be writing articles like this.

[Hamlet Au]

Actually, Wiz, I did my original math wrong, and just corrected it, 1500 is more like less than .002% of the 800K population. Even if you calculated those 1500 votes against the 133K hardcore user base, it'd be a very small number.

"The facebook nazi creed of, 'What have you got to hide?', will soon prevail in Second Life as well."

Lili, Nazi references and the like are not civil or constructive, please take them elsewhere. Also, in point of fact, Facebook actually affords more privacy between users than Second Life. I believe you can create an FB account that only lists your name and no other details. (As opposed to your IP address.)

[Ordinal's Alt]

I agree with Ordinal.

Oh wait! I've been tricked by Typepad! *shakes fist*

[Samantha Poindexter]

I agree with Ordinal Malaprop. And I am not her alt. :-)

[Samantha Poindexter]

One might also note that the policy statement you cite from Samuel Linden was made a year ago, which is eons past in LL time, and that this article omits the fact that the Community Standards were changed yesterday in response to this, to make it forbidden to out somebody's alts. But, you know, that would get in the way of your spin.

[Lili]

Wow, all the things I say on here and the only thing ever bothers you is when I mention facebook. Bye Hamlet, I don't think I need to come here anymore.

[Masami Kuramoto]

Hamlet, you're late to the party.

There are two things you need to understand about RedZone:

1. It doesn't do anything about copybot. Turn off media, and RedZone won't be able to identify your alts.

2. Alt identification via IP address correlation is unreliable and will cause collateral damage. The reasons are NAT routers, shared proxy servers, dynamic IP addresses. I ended up on RedZone's ban list without ever touching a copybot. This can happen to anyone, at any time. One day you'll enter a sim and be teleported home with the comment "You have been banned for using copybot", and there is nothing you can do about it, because banning requires no reason, and there are still people who believe that RedZone is incapable of error. TOS 8.2.5 is supposed to prevent these things, but the Lindens don't enforce their own rules.

[Hitomi Tiponi]

"Actually, Wiz, I did my original math wrong, and just corrected it, 1500 is more like less than .002% of the 800K population. Even if you calculated those 1500 votes against the 133K hardcore user base, it'd be a very small number."

According to my maths 1500 is .2% of 800K - that is a factor of a hundred different to your calculations.

This is not about IP tracking (which happens everywhere in cyberspace) it is about the accuracy and association involved in that. Redzone is:
- very innacurate, as many of those who bought a demo copy have found.
- often associates residents that are not related with no recourse/knowledge that it does
- will not work in many countries because they use dynamic IPs
- is conning many residents into believing it offers a service that it doesn't
- is run by someone who is threatening to post the database outside SL if LL bans it, they used to call that extortion

Despite what you may think we haven't heard the end of this one yet.

[Hitomi Tiponi]

"Actually, Wiz, I did my original math wrong, and just corrected it, 1500 is more like less than .002% of the 800K population. Even if you calculated those 1500 votes against the 133K hardcore user base, it'd be a very small number."

According to my maths 1500 is .2% of 800K - that is a factor of a hundred different to your calculations.

This is not about IP tracking (which happens everywhere in cyberspace) it is about the accuracy and association involved in that. Redzone is:
- very innacurate, as many of those who bought a demo copy have found.
- often associates residents that are not related with no recourse/knowledge that it does
- will not work in many countries because they use dynamic IPs
- is conning many residents into believing it offers a service that it doesn't
- is run by someone who is threatening to post the database outside SL if LL bans it, they used to call that extortion

Despite what you may think we haven't heard the end of this one yet.

[Autumn Palen]

I'm not sure comparing the number of Jira votes to the active user base is a really accurate metric. It's a bit apples and oranges, don't you think? I mean how much of the SL user base is even aware of the Jira? If you look at the most popular Jira's, the rezdone one is currently second, which might be a better gauge of peoples' level of interest in the matter.

Too, I'm not sure the article really addresses what the concern has been: the ToS has always said that sharing personal information about another resident, without consent, is a violation of the ToS and their privacy. The problem with redzone is that it's harvested a (albiet flawed) database of personal information about residents (e.g how many accounts they have with LL and the account names) and then shared that with others without consent given. The controversy isn't about IP tracking; it's about non-consensual sharing of other's personal information.

Finally, since LL recently updated their Disclosure section of the ToS to specifically include alternate accounts as falling under personal information, I'd argue that's a more telling indication about how LL feels about the issue than Samuel's year old comment.

[Danielle]

Instead of measuring the JIRA issue against all users, the proper measure is against all other JIRA issues. This one ranks #6 out of almost 40,000 issues. That implies it is of *great* importance.

It ranks just ahead of the one regarding stopping texture theft and passing around stolen items. So do you also think content theft doesn't matter to the SL population, since it gets even less votes than RedZone?

And yes, Linden Lab gets it and you don't. They changed the Community Standards to add alternate accounts to the list of privacy protected data. It's not an issue of IP addresses, it's an issue of personal privacy.

[Danielle]

Instead of measuring the JIRA issue against all users, the proper measure is against all other JIRA issues. This one ranks #6 out of almost 40,000 issues. That implies it is of *great* importance.

It ranks just ahead of the one regarding stopping texture theft and passing around stolen items. So do you also think content theft doesn't matter to the SL population, since it gets even less votes than RedZone?

And yes, Linden Lab gets it and you don't. They changed the Community Standards to add alternate accounts to the list of privacy protected data. It's not an issue of IP addresses, it's an issue of personal privacy.

[Danielle]

Oh, and fix this blog software, half the time I can't even open the comments from the front page, and a lot of the rest of the time it looks like posting failed, so I end up double posting (sorry for that)

[Hitomi Tiponi]

Yes - happens to me too Danielle.

[This is not my name]

Hi Hamlet. Welcome to my IP.

What's my name? Yes, the server has my IP, but what's my name?
Nooo. Not the name I've typed in the box up above, but my real name?

That's what you are missing when you come out with that dead horse of 'all servers get your IP'.

You have one IP for me.
I can click a button and have a different IP.
How many different IPs do you want to log for 'me'?
What's my name?
No guessing now!!!
Look at your server logs and see where it shows my name.

What RZ and similar products do it to abuse SL to obtain avatar names without their knowledge and permission.

For you to do the same, you blog would have to use an exploit to crack my PC and ferret out a name for me.

[Livia]

The fact that my IP is recorded by individual sites that I elect to visit is irrelevant.

When I log onto the internet, I do not do so in accordance with a TOS that grants me a reasonable expectation of privacy. Secondlife is not the internet at large, but rather a particular service that comes with a specific TOS.

When RedZone scans me, it is not because I elected to connect to the RedZone site or access its servers. This is quite different to sites I elect to connect to, accessing my information.

Evidently, if your website is accessible to California consumers, and you collect any information that constitutes "personal identifying information" then you must meet the privacy standards set forward in the California Online Privacy Protection Act, to not fall afoul of Californian law, regardless where your server is located, or where you operate from.

Accessing and collecting information are not the same as making correlations to form a profile. RedZone does not merely get my IP, it gathers a whole bunch of information, and then makes correlations between this and other information, to form a profile. It is not realistic to pretend that IP gathering is all that is going on, and it is deceptive and misleading to refer to "IP gathering", rather than "profiling by means that happen to include IP gathering".

LL operates in California, and binds all end users of SL, to use SL in accordance with Californian law. RedZone gathers information that is, according to Californian law, "personal identifying information", and it does so without making any privacy policy accessible to the overwhelming majority of people information is being gathered from, including most effected Californian consumers, despite the provisions of the California Online Privacy Protection Act.

It is significant that LL's deliberate decision to allow these activities to occur, despite their own TOS, might well void any liability waiver in the TOS, that directly pertains to activities that LL deliberately allows, and hosts/serves code necessary to achieve.

To enforce any provision in a contract, a party must prove the other party understood, or should have been reasonably expected to understand the provision, and it is not implausible that a court would rule that an end user could not be reasonably expected to understand that they were indemnifying LL against harm arising from activities that are unlawful in California, and which LL deliberately allows to take place in SL, and hosts and serves code necessary to the achievement of, despite the availability of reasonable steps LL could take to either prevent or minimize such activities.

Of course, if LL cannot rely on this waiver and can be held liable in respect of these activities, that does not necessarily mean that others cannot also be held liable.

According to the California Online Privacy Act, it is likely that users of RedZone, rather than LL, as people who are renting a sim which probably constitutes at least an online service when accessed by other Secondlife users, are the operators of the website/online service that is collecting information for RedZone. If these users are selling or renting any good or service, and even if not, it is entirely plausible that a court might interpret that they are the operaters of a commerical website or online service, and as such, these users should consider seeking legal advice about their potential liability if they do not want to be on the receiving end of a nasty legal surprise, particularly if they happen to reside anywhere within California's jurisdiction. The same is probably true for anyone renting a sim from LL and on-renting to an operator of a RedZone device.

RedZone users in Europe should also consider seeking legal advice if they wish to avoid any nasty legal surprises down the road, and ought to ensure they keep thourougly up to date with developing privacy law within the European Union.

RedZone might be illegal in California, and it is almost certainly contrary to the contract formed by LL's TOS, if anyone cares to take matters before a court of law.

LL's TOS grants a reasonable expectation of privacy, and surreptitiously harvesting information, including information that Californian law defines as "personal identifying information", to build profiles on end users, and then selling such information to other users, is most obviously not consistent with a reasonable expectation of privacy. I'm not a lawyer, but common sense is enough to determine that much.

[Ciaran Laval]

Hamlet I'm flabbergasted here, I'm sorry, I log IP addresses on my blog, I ask for email addresses too, I'd never dream of sharing them without consent and I don't believe you would either, but that's what Redzone does.

[Ann Otoole InSL]

Hamlet you are trying to suppress the issue. You appear to be unaware that the issue at hand has nothing to do with the snake oil copybot detection advertised and everything to do with the alt identification service. You know, the hud people wear and go anywhere in SL to identify alts without consent that has nothing to do with copybot. You appear to not even have a basic grasp of how the system functions or what the overall issue concerns.

If this issue were so unimportant then do explain why Linden Lab changed the Community Standards forbidding exactly what redzone was serving without consent up until yesterday? What? You didn't know LL changed the Community Standards to ban what redzone was doing?

[Ciaran Laval]

Hamlet read and digest Ordinal's comment, this article is really disappointing in terms of you ignoring the concerns of Second Life users.

[Avril Korman(bronxelf)]

Whilst I'm flattered for the shoutout there, Hamlet, you're presenting some critical thinking errors here.

The first is your belief that the votes on the JIRA as a ratio of the total population of SL is relevant. The reality is that this device is specifically designed to do what it does in secret. It's BUILT to hide- most of the SL population don't know it exists. Once they find out it exists, their reactions are almost uniformly negative.

Second, the related JIRA comment you link to by Samuel Linden misses the same point you do. This isn't about logging IP addresses. If you read my article, you'll see I explain that there as well. Logging IP addresses *is not all this device does*. If it were, no one would care.

Third, and many people have pointed this out to you, while you may have my IP address for posting here, you aren't trying to link that IP with *every other person* who has ever posted from the same IP, logging their names, deciding we are all the same person, and then *selling that information* at the cost of 17 bucks a pop.

So yes, you are in fact missing something here- quite a few somethings. I suggest revisiting the actual problem here.

[Hamlet Au]

"According to my maths 1500 is .2% of 800K"

Thanks, Hitomi, fixed. I inadvertently corrected my original correction incorrectly.

[Hamlet Au]

"I really don't think that anybody who can't tell the difference between the implications of a website being able to record self-identified (i.e. basically an/psudononymous) IPs if people choose to submit comments, and those of a system that collects IPs without awareness let alone consent which are automatically tied to a unique identifier, should be writing articles like this."

Ordinal, I never said they were the same. I do think it's worth pointing out that blog software does track IP addresses of comments, because that's probably not understood by many people involved in this imbroglio. I doubt most blog commenters are even aware that happens.

[Hamlet Au]

"Once they find out it exists, their reactions are almost uniformly negative."

Avril, if that's the case, why are so few of them participating in the JIRA? Redzone is an extremely popular product. I don't dispute there's a vociferous number of people extremely bothered by it, but I don't see much evidence of this "war" you wrote about.

[Hamlet Au]

"Finally, since LL recently updated their Disclosure section of the ToS to specifically include alternate accounts as falling under personal information"

Autumn, what specific change are you referring to, and how do you know it was made in result of this issue?

Also, I'm looking at the Privacy section of the ToS, which say it hasn't been updated since March 2010, and still contains this section:

http://secondlife.com/corporate/privacy.php

Information Displayed to or Collected By Other Users

... Further, you agree and understand that Linden Lab does not control and is not responsible for information, privacy or security practices concerning data that you provide to, or that may otherwise be collected by, Second Life users other than Linden Lab. For instance, some services operated by Second Life users may provide content that is accessed through and located on third party (non-Linden Lab) servers that may log IP addresses.

[Adeon Writer]

1.) Your IP address is not private.
2.) SecondLife never reveals your IP address to other residents, you do this yourself by choosing to connect to resident-owned third-party servers when you choose to allow Music Streams to play automatically on your viewer.

This is all fairly simple. Anyone who uses alts, and wishes them to remain secret, should have learned long ago to not use music streams.

LindenLab is at absolutely no fault here.
What do you want them to do? Remove music?

[CodeWarrior Carling]

If someone wants to try to build a system that assumes IP addresses are static and unique, let them shoot themselves in the foot.

For me, the main issue is that the SL viewer ships insecure by default. A third party can make the viewer load arbitrary media from third party sites without my knowledge or consent. That is the big security hole in the viewer that this device merely exploits.

Yes.. I know how to turn off auto play, but one of the basic principles of writing secure software is to ship it with secure defaults. The SL viewer ships insecure by default. That's the real problem.

It's also overly simplistic to have to either choose auto play or never play. I want indicators somewhere that tell me when something is causing my viewer to load content from a third party site, and the option to have a dialog come up every time asking me if I want to allow it. There is no sophisitcation at all to the security model.

I am tired of people making this analagous to web browsers when web browsers do put the effort into the kind of security features mentioned above. Would you use a browser that didn't support SSL, or that didn't allow you to specify websites you consider safe and which ones you think are dangerous? Would you use a browser that didn't have a pop up blocker.

Would you be happy with an email program that didn't have a spam filter?

Take a look at all of the options your web browser gives you for how and when to load things, run scripts, do this or that, and then try to convince me that this is no different than using a web browser.

It is different, and the difference is that a web browser gives us wrenches and hammers and power tools for security and Second Life gives us tinker toys.

As to why people want to be anonymous, two words - identity theft. Yes - I have something to hide. It's called my identity and it's worth a lot of money. You can have my real name when you pry it from my cold dead hands, but the good news is that dead peoples identities are worth almost as much money as a live persons.

[Qie Niangao]

Hamlet, I'm sorry but Ordinal is correct. It's difficult to find a solid place in this article on which to graft corrections. That wouldn't particularly matter if Redzone were an isolated story, but I fear it's just the beginning of a topic that will ultimately eclipse even the intellectual property concerns about this platform. It's not essential that every SL journalist has the background to cover that beat, but it would be nice if someone did.

[pancake]

I think the fastest way to be convinced this tool is an issue and to understand residents concern is to vist RedZones own forums.

A few hours there you find yourself wondering if these are really the people you want not only having access to and linking your account names, but those in your household including teens who use the same computer.

[Hamlet Au]

"It's not essential that every SL journalist has the background to cover that beat, but it would be nice if someone did."

Qie, that's exactly why this post is called, "How Widespread is the Redzone IP Tracking Controversy in Second Life?" Blog-based journalism is conversational and evolves with reader response, and involves a lot of thinking out loud. I'm skeptical it's as huge a controversy as some have suggested, but I'm definitely open to being convinced. But you have to understand there are dozens of potential Second Life controversies that go nowhere. Which is why I'd prefer to look at this cautiously, and hope my readers do as well.

[Anthony Hocken]

I heard that Redzone users can no longer manually search for alts. Assuming this is the case, does this not mitigate the problem for the most part?

That's not to say Redzone isn't crud. It still fails to protect against CopyBot and also bans many people from parcels by mistake. The main argument now could be false advertising on SL's marketplace.

When alt info was user searchable up until very recently (that is, without consent), the dismissive argument that "a website collects IPs so how is this any different" wasn't relevant. A better comparison would be if many websites linked your user ID behind your back. Imagine if any disgruntled user could pull up your Digg account and discover your partner's AdultAnnSummers account and your child's Disney account. Imagine if it frequently made those links by mistake just because you used an Internet cafe or got dynamically assigned an IP previously used by someone else. The scope for abuse and false accusations is immense, not just to you but to your family members.

LL need to be more proactive on user privacy without needing this kind of backlash for them to act. It's taken a year or more just to get this far. And they still need to fix the Viewer to prevent this kind of exploit. And how about a whitelist feature. Maybe even pre-populate the whitelist with media servers which don't allow scripts. Eg Dreamhost designate separate servers for quicktime streaming, if I remember correctly.

[Ann Otoole InSL]

Hamlet what changed was not the tos but the community standards.

Before:
"Residents are entitled to a reasonable level of privacy with regard to their Second Life experience. Sharing personal information about a fellow Resident --including gender, religion, age, marital status, race, sexual preference, and real-world location beyond what is provided by the Resident in the First Life page of their Resident profile is a violation of that Resident's privacy. Remotely monitoring conversations, posting conversation logs, or sharing conversation logs without consent are all prohibited in Second Life and on the Second Life Forums. "

On Feb 24 2011 it was changed to this:

"Residents are entitled to a reasonable level of privacy with regard to their Second Life experience. Sharing personal information about your fellow Residents without their consent -- including gender, religion, age, marital status, race, sexual preference, alternate account names, and real-world location beyond what is provided by them in their Resident profile -- is not allowed. Remotely monitoring conversations in Second Life, posting conversation logs, or sharing conversation logs without the participants' consent are all prohibited."

The key aspect as relates to data scraping is this part:

"Sharing personal information about your fellow Residents without their consent -- including gender, religion, age, marital status, race, sexual preference, alternate account names, and real-world location beyond what is provided by them in their Resident profile -- is not allowed."

The part about alternate account names was just added. There is some debate going on about the removal of jurisdiction. However the jurisdiction is now the last sentence of the preamble:

"All Second Life Community Standards apply to all areas of Second Life, the Second Life Forums, and the Second Life Website."

Oh and the comment by soft in the long tortuous jira commentary might help you understand that the policy change was indeed irrefraggably associated with the redzone issue:

"Soft Linden edited comment on VWR-24746 at 2/25/11 3:40 PM:
------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for all the feedback, everybody. I wanted to give an update since a lot of you have been asking.

Many of you have already noticed that the Disclosure section of the Community Standards page was updated. That was done to more explicitly state that alts are protected from disclosure. We also removed some items from the Marketplace for violations of the Terms of Service and Community Standards, and we notified the merchants that they needed to fix the violations before they could re-list these items. This is the support team's normal practice for handling reports that a listing violates the Terms of Service or Community Standards. "

Hope this helps.

I have created a feature request for a do not track opt out system for those interested in privacy from data scrapers:

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6793

If interested please express your interest by watching the jira. Optionally vote for it.

[Avril Korman(bronxelf)]

Hiya Hamlet!

As someone pointed out above, JIRA response is always low. This ranks in the top ten JIRAs ever created (which I also wrote in that article.)

As an adult of well over voting age you know by now that people who have an opinion about a thing do not necessarily go out to the polls and vote on it. This is human nature. Your comparison is not valid. The correct comparison is how does this JIRA compare with other JIRAs, which shows it to be of far greater importance than you give it.

Just because you're not paying attention doesn't mean that other people aren't. Word on this one is spreading and the voices are growing, not shrinking. You don't have to believe that- but it doesn't make it untrue.

This has been building for over a year. It's not an overnight avalanche. It became a bigger problem when this device became mobile in a HUD form, as the mobile device has no legitimate function beyond privacy invasion.

A look into Commerce chat (go ask the moderator there- she'll tell you!), where there has been *great* debate on this (so much so the mod had to shut it down a number of times) or in any number of groups who have passed out information about this, would show you that this is indeed a very hot issue. The fact that there was a change in Community Standards to protect alt names would show you that this is indeed an issue large enough for changes to be made within 2 weeks of that JIRA opening- which as you know is lightning speed for the Lab. I don't think that's going to be the only, or last change.

You can minimize the issue, as absolutely your right- your column, your call, and no one can gainsay that. But the reality is that this device, if its owner is telling the truth (which I personally doubt, but let's pretend) has grossed him 340,000USD, by scanning and taking personal data (NOT the IP addresses themselves, and NOT the names themselves, but the LINKAGE thereof- that's the important part), *without the knowledge or consent of those he scanned*.

That's a big deal to a lot of people.

[Laetizia Coronet]

Ah yes, the 'percentage of residents' trick. That doesn't fly, Hamlet, because if it does, you tell me what Obama does in the White House with such a tiny minority of the total of people which could have voted actually having voted for him.
By another metric, the RedZone issue has 1466 votes making it ranked 6th among current issues - 3rd if we don't count the closed and resolved issues.
RedZone has more votes than 'stopping texture theft', 'flexible sculpted prims' or 'region crossing fail'.
You tell me, Mr. Au - shall we drop all those issues as well through lack of votes? Really... you can do better than this.

[Adeon Writer]

CodeWarrier, by visiting any website, it accesses countless third-party site's content. It's just how the web works.

Expecting SL to be any different stifles the creative limits of the medium.

Media textures are a very, very good thing that should have been standard in SL from the very start. You act like it's villainy.

[Autumn Palen]

As Ann has pointed out, the change was in the Disclosure section of Community Standards, which one must agree to per Section 8.1 of the ToS. Sorry, I should've been more specific.

Since the issue has been about non-consensual disclosure of alternate account information, and that LL updated (just two days ago) the Community Standards to specifically include the words "alternate account names" as information about others that may not be shared without consent, it's reasonable to conclude that it was a response to this issue. Realistically, can you (or anyone) offer a plausible alternative explanation?

[God Almighty]

How in hell do you find posts in this blog?
It's seriously borked.

[Frustrated]

I Own an RZ, (Go ahead Ban me from your land Now) It was Purchased may of 2010 by reccomedation of a friend, I had a stalker, He lived 5 hours away and told me he "Claimed" to have a friend who could delete SL Accounts, He was persistant to Cyber/Meet IRL Whatever. He would show up at my lot and rez sex items at my lot, told me he had 10 alts, harrass whoever happen to be at my lot or even speak to me in local and threaten them to stay away from me,I being smart did not disclose alot of personal information but he claimed to have friends who had access to that. I Bought it as a security system, Was it expensive, Hell yeah! But after sharing with my best friend they urged me, even offered to buy it for me for MY safety. I was not even aware you could see the alts of others till i had it maybe 6 months later when I finally logged into the website. The GZr are claiming all of us "RZ" owners are disgracful for owning such a item, Honestly if my SL is that boring that all I did is research peoples ALTs, I have more issues than owning the RZ. I have NEVER outed someone nor used the Rz in a matter that would affect another avatar. I do not post on the RZ forum nor do I care that my ability to see alts is gone, it was not the reason I purchased it, if I ban a few extra people keeping this dude away from me, I am okay with that, It at least gives me the peace of mind that I will not log in and have a bunch of nasty prims on my lot, Virtual Harrassment can be serious, I do not apologize if I ban the rest of his family from my lot, Not my issue, I will be okay with that. The GZrs are making it out to be a Bash on RZ owners, making a Huge list of us and Banning us from thier Sims, I think this is a Pathetic move to punish those who have done nothing wrong. If you have never been cyber stalked you would not understand and I hope you neve do. I will NOT take my RZ down, I use it for security that is it. It is My land, and those thet come there trust me enough to know I am not going to Out thier "Female" avi or whatever. the GZrs need to stick to the Issue and not punish those that are using it for whatever type of Protection they need be it a copy bot/ stalker/ Griefer Etc.

[Livia]

"Blog-based journalism is conversational and evolves with reader response, and involves a lot of thinking out loud." [by Hamlet Au]

So your blog is for people who are so a-social, that they cannot find an uninformed person to have a one to one conversation with?

Oh well, at least you let me communicate here by means other than appending emote-tags to other peoples' posts...

[Autumn Palen]

@Frustrated

I very very much sympathize with anyone being stalked in rl or sl. It's a frightening experience that leaves one feeling helpless and vulnerable.

That said, in your post you said you feel it's unfair that people are banning rz users from their sims. While I agree that blanket banning of innocent people is wrong, that's precisely one of the problems with redzone itself.

Anyone who has at some point shared an IP address with another SL user (such as people who have logged in from the same internet cafe, or the same dorm, or any other place where two strangers would be assigned the same IP address) will all be (falsely) considered alts of each other. So if one of those people become banned by redzone's database, they all do, and will be considered copybotters and griefers, suddenly unable to visit sims they used to be able to, and each completely innocent.

I'm not trying to compare or minimize your own situation, but the issue of fairness has many angles.

[Frustrated]

@Autumn Palen

I appreciate your understanding Regarding My situation, and I understand there is a percentage of people that may use the same IP, (as far as I know the person I purchased it for lived with family and 1 room mate) My feeling is that I Banned for Purposes of my own Safety, they are banning for no reason except the fact that I own something they do not like,in which I have never used for that purpose they do not like it for. I have been in secondlife since April 2007, I have never once been banned for any reason from a sim, I do not know if I am on any "List" yet but Because apparently I am not allowed to own a security system on my Home lot, Not even a mall or public Sim for protection. It is sad they are taking this to an extreme punishing innocent people that like myself paid the 20$ for nothing more than Peace of mind so I could Log. It may be just a VR, but Virtual harrassment and stalking is Very scary and Real. At the time this was purchased, this was marketed for stalkers and it was greatly needed by me. I hope they stop Bashing everyone that just happenes to own one, it is childish. Not everyone uses it to the extent they are claiming, to ban everyone who owns one is just wrong. I did what LL asked, I filed a Abuse report, I banned that avatar from my land which has its faults (Using the "Ban" tab, you can restrict selected avatars' access to your land. Residents on the ban list cannot visit your land, but can still fly over your land at a certain height) and he continued to come back as a New avatar (22 times before I finaly purchased RZ).

[Ciaran Laval]

@Frustrated, people who have been stalked view the alt viewing Redzone provided as a stalker's paradise, surely you can see that side of the issue too? People aren't complaining about people wanting security, nor are they complaining about attempts to stifle copybot, they are complaining that Redzone provides too much information.

[Frustrated]

@Ciara Laval

And I am not denying that it can be misused, I am only saying that some RZ owners are not abusing it, I was not even aware of the Listing for alts till MANY months after the purchase was made, I can see how it CAN be abused, which is scary in itself, but why should all RZ users be penalized for that? In my case it stopped the 23rd attempt to harass me. From what I know the Option to see alts has been removed from the web site so it should be a NON issue now.

[Ciaran Laval]

@Frustrated the fact that you can see that it can be misused should alert you to why people are unhappy, I know someone who was furious over the alts issue, they didn't realise it existed either and they were unhappy because of the stalking potential.

Two wrongs do not make a right, there is absolutely no need for Redzone to be sharing alts and no the issue hasn't gone away, the creator of Redzone suggested that if someone whom someone else requested alt information about doesn't agree within sixty seconds then that should be deemed consent, this is completely out of order.

What you seek via security is hurting other people and whereas I don't agree with banning Redzone users, I do have little sympathy with people who hide their Redzone devices and don't tell visitors it's scanning their presence because it clearly can be used as a stalking tool.

How would you feel if you'd chosen to hide yourself from your stalker by creating a new account and he found you via Redzone?

[Livia]

@Frustrated:
No one should be stalked, but providing tools to other stalkers, to potentially help you with your particular stalker, is not acceptable or even rational.

You have been feeding our data into a database that stalkers can use to stalk others.

Meanwhile, all your stalker needs to do is make more accounts, turn their media off, and maybe get their own RedZone to make it more difficult for you to hide from them.

So, in effect, your stalker cannot access the full range of rich media in SL when stalking you?

Some protection....

[Frustrated]

@ Ciaran Laval Livia

Once again Not using it for the reasons that people are so Upset over, some people do not have such an evil mind I never turned the coin to see how it could turn against me, In my train of thought it is about protecting me and back then, RZ was the only one that stopped alts that I knew of (Since It was referred to me by a friend), I did not even know how it worked (Honestly I did not know until recently and I do not think Many people even knew about the system either so him coming to my land without Media on would have been Pure Luck, Not through knowledge) , I am sure every one of My Avis has been scanned, Nothing I can do about it Now. It is a Mute point now that they have hidden the alts from view unless consent is given. The Bottom Line is, I was not out to harm anyone and I do not like being beaten down for protecting myself way back in the day when that One system was My Only Option. I am usually a Very Laid back person, Quite the smart ass, But I am just tired of being put into a group of people that were abusing something, When In Fact this actually saved me from Quitting Second Life completely. I Will protect myself first, before I allow another User to Threaten me physically,Virtually, sexually and emotionally. *facepalms* Honestly, Please Just ban Me, I am tired of arguing with people who seem to be better than I, who apparently have never needed something to detect alts, to keep your sanity. I hope you NEVER have to go to sleep wondering if the Freak on the other end of the internet Really has a contact that can get Your account canceled, Or even worse Your real life Location, and I am not talking your IP, I am talking Your RL home address.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

What if RedZone could only be applied to a parcel one owned? (Meaning, among other things, that the HUD was eliminated or emasculated.)

What if RedZone's stealth capacity was eliminated, so that people always KNEW that they were being scanned?

What if RedZone published a list of sims employing the device?

What if RedZone owners were required to warn people BEFORE they arrived on the sim that the device was in place (i.e., in the search listings)?

What if people arriving on a RedZone sim were advised that they had, say, one minute to leave the sim BEFORE scanning commenced?

If these changes were implemented, I'd still dislike and distrust RedZone, but I'd certainly stop opposing it so vociferously (although I'd still have objections to outing alt names, as these would still include false positives).

My question to RedZone users and defenders is this: would YOU accept these sorts of conditions on RedZone? And if not, why not? Is it necessary to catch people unawares, and rob them of the opportunity to make an informed choice about whether they want to be scanned or not?

I think the answers to that question ... or the silence greeting it ... might say an awful lot about what really motivates people to use this system.

[Ann Otoole InSL]

@Scylla - the main excuse they raise is they have alt griefing problems. They also rant about wanting all of SL payment info used. So if this was really why they needed it they could have set parcel access to payment info used and saved the money. So it isn't about security. It isn't about copybot because that is an unwinnable arms race. Redzone is just an alt disclosure service which now requires explicit consent from every avatar in a list of suspected alts before transmission. I.e.; before sharing data on 5 accounts all 5 accounts must opt in. Since this requirement is likely impossible to meet in reality then the system probably just jeopardizes anyone that uses it along with the system operator.

Well it does have an adult content gruesome animated gore option which technically should limit it's use to Zindra which some people like but whatever.

[Ann Otoole InSL]

Oh and Itazura Radio made a great downfall parody on this topic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqW0A0PLhQ0

It is a classic out of the gate.

[Frustrated]

@ Scylla Rhiadra

Maybe that is where I differ, as long as I can protect my lot, I do not care to see alts, Nor do I care that it only does my lot. When you are threatened all you want is safty, peace of mind that some Mentally instable person is not going to pop up at any ungiven time. Adding to yur list, there should also be a safe list, one that people can be added to, I did NOT get this to spam every one that hits my lot, My partner should never be asked to Opt in nor people that I consider close enough to say, I know you do not need to be scanned. I think having Locations Have to list it in the listings or search is a Bit tedious, I think if it already is going to spam you to ask for consent, it should also be an Option to Turn off ejecting if a scan is not received (say if I forget to add someone to the safe list or say I Just want it to Detect the people on my ban list) If so, It would only scan for 2 known avatars on my ban list, Not gather Info But make sure thos 2 are Not on my lot, I could care less about your other 2nd lives, I have my own to live out, and I just want mine to not include those 2 avatars on the grid. Let me select the people I deem to be a threat, that is what a security system is for. Chances are, If you are one of the people on the list at my lot, your going to be showing up at a time I was not aware and I want you to ether Be scanned or get the Hell off my lot

[Nine Warrhol]

I knew something was fishy about that client detection system some time ago, and shared my concerns with the Imprudence viewer team.

Imprudence users were being willy nilly banned from places utilizing RedZone-we thought it was just a fluke but it appeared to be calculated-the bans were viewer specific. *Imprudence is not a nefarious client, and has the best rep of any TPV out there. So tell me, what was that about? Huh?

It's snake oil IMO. How the creator can sell this thing to people assuring them that their goods are safe using it is really beyond me and somewhat predatory. As has been stated, a more than casual copybotter can walk right in to a RZ 'protected' area and pretty much take whatever they want. It does not work.

Also, your i.p. visable while viewing media/music in SL. That's not a big deal. The big deal is when someone uses this system to string together your other avatars via i.p. address. THAT is very much a violation of privacy and no one has the right to know how many avatars connect to SL from your i.p. address, except Linden Lab. This whole thing is exactly like the Emerald scandal that eventually led to it's demise with the avatar data tracking.

There should be a publicly available list of who is using the system. This is something that should be done anyway in the spirit of transparency. Merchants have every right to protect themselves, I support that.

We, the public, also have a right to know who is using this system and should be afforded the choice to avoid shopping at any place that has it. It works both ways.

[Joshua Philgarlic]

One of the main problems with Redzone is, that this system isn't reliable at all! Some days ago I got banned from a sim just because this thing didn't recognize my viewer and therefore suspected me to be a copybot. My viewer was nothing else than well known Phoenix 1.5.2.908, and my one and only reason to be at this place was just to VISIT it.

[Ciaran Laval]

@Frustrated you continue to fail to see how this tool has aided griefers and stalkers, two wrongs do not make a right, people who have been stalked are furious about this tool and yes I am talking about people who have had stalkers at their door in RL. This is the problem with Redzone and the creator has already threatened to take it private and sell the details of people's alts, you use this tool at your peril.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

hi Frustrated

Like others who have commented here, I have a great deal of sympathy for your problem; I completely understand the appeal of RedZone for you.

The problem is, of course, that RedZone is a double-edged sword. It may well help protect you from a stalker or griefer -- although any griefer worth his or her salt will be able to get around that by changing his or her IP address anyway.

But it is also a potential TOOL for stalkers. I have known a number of people who have killed off their avatars and started afresh with an alt because they have been stalked by former lovers, etc. RedZone potentially enables that stalker to identify the alt by IP address, so that the stalking can begin anew.

So while, as I said, I understand and sympathize with your own situation, in the "big picture," I'm not sure that I think that RedZone is a very trustworthy response to issues like this.

[IntLibber]

Hamlet,
1500 users is NOT just "0.002% of SL's active users". Concurrency is running 50,000 avatars, with number of accounts logged on in the past month under a half million (accounts doesnt equal number of users given the number of alts the average user has). This means that the number of people who voted for it (and I've never seen a JIRA with that many votes for it, so downplaying it like that is totally BS of you) is somewhere between 0.15%-3.0% of active users. If you account for the fact that 95% of "active users" are completely unaware of the existence of the JIRA, or how to use it, you get a much clearer picture that this issue is of serious importance to users.

[IntLibber]

Oh, other than your math errors, I was around in 2006, and SL didnt get shut down due to any "copybot panic". Some drama queen merchants shut down their shops in protest, and merchants who had habitually displayed their products in the open, or used holo vendors, changed their vending systems to protect their products. Some "security experts" sold a lot of fake "copybot protection systems" that did nothing but spam a sim with annoying "!STOP" spam in open chat, totally ignoring that copybots ignored chat from non-owners or those not given authorization to use them by their owners. But so-called security experts made a lot of money selling such fraudulent devices.

I was the person who came up with the idea of using the parcel media to detect the IP addresses of griefers, btw, I was the first person to use it on the grid, to combat the PN raiders. What is funny is that the people who are such ardent defenders of RedZone, CDS and similar products now all attacked me for using such a system on my own sims. Typical hypocrisy of the haters.

Eventually I realized that using these sorts of systems only increases the amount of ire and hate on the grid, and I discontinued using it, along with other security devices I invented, like my avatar age detector, known as the Rat Thing commercially, or as "Int's Shitty Invention" by the fresh alts of griefers it kept out of my land.

If you are going to use IP address detection to combat copybot or other IP theft or other damages, you need to be prepared to use the IP addresses to get a court order to force LL to disclose the identities of the people so that you can litigate against them in a court of law, like grownups do. If you arent going to do that, you are just ranting and ratcheting up the drama and strife.

[Velvet Bikcin]

Using the # of people who vote in a JIRA is not a fair measure.

In the States, there is usually a 50%-60% turnout on election day. In recent memory, candidates have won with only a slim percentage over 50% and in fact less than 50%.

I have never heard someone say the President doesn't have a mandate because only 1 in 5 people voted for him (or someday her.

[Ann Otoole InSL]

Votes don't count. LL will likely be removing the votes in a couple of weeks.

What counts is the SL TOS Section 8.3(i) forbids harvesting/collecting data about other users without consent. So these devices have been violating the TOS all along. And it is the users of the devices that have been violating the TOS. If you have a grief cube and never use it then you never violated the TOS. If you use it then, regardless of who created ity, you violated the TOS and you are the one LL will take action against.

LL has action to take against the entire slate of redzone (and similar devices) users that ever rezzed on on the grid anywhere. They can delete them all they want. They violated the TOS. they need to get a disciplinary action against them for doing so.

And LL needs to deal with the problem from the technical perspective too.

[IntLibber]

the problem with applying that draconian of an interpretation is that the SL client lets you log all chat automatically as part of the program, which is "collecting information about other users", and the media field is meant to be used with webserver applications like Shoutcast that are coded to log the IP addresses of users, so its built into the program. Saying you can't use LL's official application the way it was programmed is really legally indefensible.

What is truly against TOS is to *SHARE* any information collected with others inworld, like telling other people on inworld chat who someone's alts are.

[Arcadia Codesmith]

Land owners should have the OPTION built into the client to ban by IP address/range, without being able to read the IP address.

The approach has limitations, but it's still a useful tool for reducing alt griefing.

Thieves should be taken to criminal court and serve jail time.

[us vpn]

Have you tried to connect to a VPN first so that they won't track your IP?

[Wowomg]

Its a fricken game...leave if ya don't like the way it is run....A..h...