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Monday, March 28, 2011


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Tinsel Silvera

I agree with Jon, this is a big deal. Open Sim is now just a couple of clicks away. I cannot imagine the sim-on-demand possibly getting any faster or easier.

Laetizia 'Tish' Coronet

"Facebook Connect creates your account in seconds."
No it won't. I don't do Facebook.

Ann Otoole InSL

Where is your trademark white suit Hamlet?

Ann Otoole InSL

BTW I won't downplay the importance of this. But before it is really there we need intergrid content compatibility beyond mesh. Intergrid teleport would be nice too.

Adeon Writer

Awesome, except for the Facebook part. But this is cool enough that I'll violate their ToS and make an account under an alias. :/

Ignatius Onomatopoeia

Welcome to the pre-Beta shoals, Hamlet :)


Thank you for covering this. Given the OAR-upload ability here, it provides something I've only seen in the Openlife world, where they call it "scene flip." That feature lets a sim owner load up to 5 different versions of a sim with a one-button operation. Perfect for RP settings.

With Kitely, I could imagine an educator having several different OARs for different settings in a literary-studies course, then load a different one for each part of an assignment and have the actors and students meet.

So instead of "The Fall of The House of Usher," I could do Poe's Arthur Gordon Pym in all its cannibalistic glory, from the scenes on the ships to those in Antarctica.

I now see a reason to log into Facebook more than once every other week.

As for your trademark white suit, this new avatar is more Bryan Ferry than Tom Wolfe. Get your glam on, mister.

Bavid Dailey

It looks interesting , except for the facebook setup. I have asked on the website, if there is an alternative ...

Arcadia Codesmith

VERY interesting.

But if you've got a concurrency averaging 50 users for 24 hours, that's $240 a day.

One account botted 24/7 would cost $144 a month. It wouldn't take a lot of malice (or love, for that matter) to drive your bill into the stratosphere.

I don't foresee widespread adoption unless maximum charge per user per month would drops to $5-$10, with the infrastructure to collect a subscription fee/microtransactions/other revenue stream.

I see clear and wonderful applications for events at the current price point, just not a persistent virtual world.

Rin Tae

Those are the advancements that make me see more future in the OpenSim grid structure then in a walled garden like SL. The potential and also the market is much bigger and the application described here is one of the steps needed to make it wide spread.
It is however only a step on the long way to get there and it will need the ability to shared content and hypergrid like teleporting to really kick it of as a important part of the future internet. And to be honest ... I think that when this happenes, then it wont be a part of facebook, but facebook will be a part of it.
This might sound utopian but such virtual worlds (combined with foreseeable technological improvements) offer so much that there is a chance for a fundamental change in how the internet is being used.

On the other hand ... predictions are difficult. Especially about the future.

Galatea Gynoid

"I see clear and wonderful applications for events at the current price point, just not a persistent virtual world."

Precisely. It'd be a great for hosting meetings and setting up demos like some projects I've worked on in the past that would have been better off hosted on something like this than on a Second Life sim. A great place to work, but... not really a great place to *live*...


Another huge step forward for virtual worlds.

The anti-Facebook crusaders of SL have devolved into a parody of themselves.


I agree with Jon. This is a big deal for Opensim. Very impressive.

And if they eventually add hypergrid connectivity, then you've got something even *bigger*.

Ciaran Laval

Facebook connect makes it a no go for many, but the bigger issue is metered billing, that's going to put plenty of folk off, realistically for any sort of reasonable use by an organisation it's not going to be a lot cheaper than Second Life, if at all.

It is an interesting development but it needs more options.

Laetizia 'Tish' Coronet

Yeah Gabe, that is why Kitely is considering other connections instead of just Farcebook, right?

AldoManutio Abruzzo

Uhm, that metered billing is if you create and maintain a world...the visitors are not being billed.

This is a very intriguing possibility for those of interested in creating environments for exploration and experimentation, something that SL seemed to forget as they continued to make it difficult for serious art and education to take place?

Arcadia Codesmith

Facebook connectivity to an outside app can be achieved without exposing the Facebook identity.

I don't know if the Kitely worlds offer that option, but it has been done with some Facebook games.

I'd love to host a small world from my Facebook page that my friends could drop in on with no fuss or hassle, play some board games or just hang out and chat. I might give it a spin, if I can lock out access when I'm not there.

But I wouldn't build a general-access virtual world without pseudonymity... and without a reasonable flat-fee structure.


This is pretty fascinating - I imagine they have figured out how to do what LL should have done *ages* ago - host sim environments only when there is someone to occupy them? That's definitely a step in the right direction. I don't see how this could be considered "cheap" in any sense, more like it would encourage people to treat it like a cellular phone service and hang up the call as fast as possible. If you had people hanging around after hours it would rather quickly end up a lot more expensive than Linden Lab hosting.

Corcosman Voom

Well, this did answer one obviouse question I had when I looked at Kitely's home page. Yes, you can have more than one avatar at a time in there. That wasn't obvious on their home page.

ColeMarie Soleil

Thank you Gabe. Its kind of sad really.

Ilan Tochner

@Arcadia Codesmith

When you want to share your virtual world you can click Edit and select which group of your Facebook friends are allowed to enter it. Once you want to stop allowing people to enter it you simply need to click Edit again and change access back to "Just Me".

Arcadia Codesmith

Ah, okay. I'll have to look into it. I have a project in mind that might be a good fit for this platform.

Ann Otoole InSL

$6000+ a month for a busy sim in Kitely. (40 users 24*7) What a laugh. I predict massive investor fail.

Robustus Hax

That actually just shows you the quirks in the Linden system as currently set up. In SL everyone shares the costs for the one out of every so odd sims that actually has 40 people on it day or night, as opposed to people who use their sim lightly. If you are a light user you are not going to be paying more than SL tier.


Been reading a number of blogs on this and there seems to be more than the charges that need making clear.(when you look at their credit page it has two user prices - $0.75 users per minute and $0.45 per hour, but $0.20per hour on the front page. Confused)
No contact information on their website, no Terms of Service. Even though by using their site you agree to the ToS.

"By using this site, you signify your acceptance of this policy and our terms of service. If you do not agree to this policy, please do not use our site. Your continued use of the site following the posting of changes to this policy will be deemed your acceptance of those changes."

How do you agree to something that is not there :-P

Also with no contact details how can you be sure your content is safe, how would you do a DMCA or report inappropriate behavior? Can other viewers be used?

The Facebook login doesn't bother me too much, apart from what are we giving Kitely access to?

Ilan Tochner

Hi Hunt,

Our pricing is the standard "if you buy more we'll give you a better rate".

The specifics are explained in the table from which you quoted:
Pay 5$ get 600 KC (i.e. it'll cost you $0.45 per hour)
Pay 20$ get 4,000 KC (i.e. it'll cost you $0.30 per hour)
Pay 100$ get 30,000 KC (i.e. it'll cost you $0.20 per hour)

You’re right, our business, operations and development are not ready for prime time yet. We’re just 2 guys working from home who had just made their public website available and were swept by some very welcome traction waaaay sooner than they had expected. We were sure we would have a lot of time to take care of all the missing pieces before anyone noticed us and now that we’ve gone viral we’re trying to do a million things at once and a lot of urgent tasks are still pending. I’ve already included the spirit of our terms of service in our FAQ but you’re right that that is not our legal agreement.

I appreciate your privacy concerns but more than 600 million people share the Facebook information you mentioned with the millions of websites that use Facebook Connect without ever installing anything from us. Every time someone presses a “Login with Facebook” button anywhere on the net they are sharing that information and sometimes a lot more.

Our account creation process only asks that you give Kitely access to your basic profile information so we can automatically create your account. We ask for access to your groups information so we can allow you to select which one you wish to give access to a world.

As for DMCA takedown notices, I practically live inside our support forums and have been answering people’s questions and requests for days. If you want to find me then that is where to do so. Our support page enables you to send me private messages. I know that is not the legal requirement for DMCA. We’ll get to it once we have a proper office in place.

We are currently subsidizing everybody’s usage, if our free service isn’t appealing enough for you to use then continue using what does suit your needs and, hopefully, you’ll be willing to give us a try once we’ve taken care of everything your cautious about.


"The specifics are explained in the table from which you quoted:
Pay 5$ get 600 KC (i.e. it'll cost you $0.45 per hour)
Pay 20$ get 4,000 KC (i.e. it'll cost you $0.30 per hour)
Pay 100$ get 30,000 KC (i.e. it'll cost you $0.20 per hour)"

Still confused because on your buy credits page it says $0.75 per minute user and $0.45 per hour user.

" I know that is not the legal requirement for DMCA. We’ll get to it once we have a proper office in place."

You're right that is not the legal requirement, therefore your FQAs need changing as they state in connection to DMCAs,

"Regardless of our own inclinations on any subject we will always comply with what the law requires of us:"

Ilan Tochner

Hunt, I think you are a bit confused:

The Kitely site has only a Get Credits button which opens a dialog with a table that clearly states in the "Cost per user/minute" column that charges are in cents not in dollars, i.e. "0.75 cents" not "$0.75". Where exactly is our "buy credits page" that "says $0.75 per minute user" located?

As for your suggestion that respecting DMCA takedown notices is somehow against the law if you don't comply with the entire DMCA address requirements:

Our FAQ states that we will comply with DMCA takedown notices. Those are notices which contain specific information which an internet service provider can use to identify and remove potentially infringing content from its site. DMCA is a US law that provides certain companies legal protection when all its requirements are met.

If some organization doesn't comply with all those requirements (yet) it doesn't mean it can't already follow the takedown procedures defined by the law.

Did I address your concerns?


Is $0.75 not 75 cents? or are you saying cent is your credits (KC as you refer to them at the bottom of the same page.)

I have linked a screen shot to my name on here of what I am reading, I would of emailed it to you, but no email address on your site so I have posted it on this blog for you to look at. If that 0.75 cents is your credits it maybe an idea to call them KCs.

Thats a side note now, after reading your replies here and on other blogs, your right this system is not for me. DMACs, ToS,and contact details are important to me. Also not at all happy reading about the .exe writing to my registry. I understand what you say about it being an open source Firebreath cross-platform plugin and you are only reading the secondlife:// URL’s, but after the whole Emerald viewer issues I am not happy to use your system.

I wish you luck with whatever you are trying to do, but its not for me.

Thank you.

Ilan Tochner

Hunt, now your just being silly: "$0.75" is "75 cents" but our site clearly states that if you pay $5 you will get 660 KC which means your "Cost per user/minute" will be "0.75 cents". Just like if you pay $100 you will get 30,000 KC which means your "Cost per user/minute" will be "0.33 cents". Anyone reading this post can go to our site and see that so why make such clearly false statements?

There is no need to get so upset about a system you don't want to use. We are certainly not forcing you to use our free trial promotions. Each KC someone currently spends is money out of our own personal savings. If you don't want to play then sit this one out. It's simply childish to try to spread fear, uncertainty, and doubt about 2 guys who are very open about who they are, what they do now and what their plans are for the future.

We will overcome our growing pains with time and, if you aren't happy with using our free beta service now, then I invite you to reconsider it once it is all nice and polished.


First i am in no way upset, just voicing my concerns and reasons why I will not be using your system. Sorry you feel that is childish, but thats like me finding your reply condesending.

I am still totally confused over your pricing. As long as you and the people on your free trail, who will hopefully be paying after beta understand it, then thats what matters.

As for false statement, I posted the snapshot off your website, to try and show where I was getting my confusion.

As I said before, I wish you luck with whatever you are trying to do, but its not for me, for the reasons I have stated in my above posts.

Good luck.

Arcadia Codesmith

Let me give this a shot....

0.75 cents is 3/4 of one cent, not 75 cents.

Ilan Tochner

Hi Hunt, I apologize I offended you. I had no intention to do so.

Regarding how our pricing works:

We charge you 1 KC to let 1 user visit 1 of your worlds for 1 minute. In other words, 1 KC buys you 1 user-minute of use.

The more you pay the less each user-minute of someone using one of your worlds costs you.

If you spend $5 to buy Kitely Credits then each KC we give you ends up costing you $0.0075 (or "0.75 cents" as shown in our price table).

If you spend $100 to buy Kitely Credits then each KC we give you ends up costing you $0.0033 (or "0.33 cents" as shown in our price table).

I hope that cleared things up a bit.

I hope that with time we will earn your trust and you will be willing to try our service.

Have a great day :-)


Thanks Arcadia, that cleared the pricing issue up for me ;-)


This may become useful once they integrate directory services and openid. As an enterprise user, I would want to create accounts for my employees in advance.

James OReilly

New World Studio is a free open source platform making OpenSimulator easy!

Universal Plug & Play UPnP enables Connect Behind the Firewall vs Dedicated Server

New World Studio is developed by New World Grid, the Opensim home of CERN!


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