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Thursday, May 03, 2012


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Menno ophelia

Good article. I responded in the GW2 forum as soon as i saw the post. I actually think that they did a great job on the female charr. What i thought was super interesting about that whole forum post was that 99% of all man that responded rejected it ( including me ). I am actually happy for once to not see those superhero supersize tits on a female character. In general i feel that GW2 is doing a fine job.

I always stay far away from rolling a humanoid in any mmo. I wasn't planning on rolling a charr but it really got me hooked. The thing is, knowing the lore of charr and their believes/customs, they are fighters. A feline 6 memory gland chest plate would only slow them down in battle.

Good Job Arenanet!

shockwave yareach

Simply make the females have breasts, and those who don't want them can dial them to zero at their leisure.


As for the "animals shouldn't look like humans" crowd. Give me a break! So we should bulldoze all those ancient glyphs of Ra, Horus and Anubis in the great pyramids, just because it squicks you? Furries weren't the originators of anthropomorphics; we simply enjoy it today. But you'll find female animals with boobs walking and talking in cartoons (Dinosaucers years back, Thundercats today, etc) and movies (Space Jam, Roger Rabbit, and a better look than you dreamed of in Fritz the Cat) and more. Even Minnie Mouse has worn a LBD in various events, which Mickey certainly didn't object to.

They are boobs. They are in the game already in other species, so why not the rest? If you don't want them to arrive an hour before you do, dial them down to nothing. But don't get upset when you are mistaken for a male when you do -- that purse does absolutely nothing for you darling.

Gahum Riptide

"Simply make the females have breasts, and those who don't want them can dial them to zero at their leisure.

Simple. "

So, why should they be included if the game designers designed the race to *not have them*? I don't quite understand this whole line of reasoning where we should break the character design just because fans think tits = feminine.

shockwave yareach

That attitude of "why should they be included if the game designers designed the race to not have them"...

Why should SL have sculpts if it didn't originally have them?

Why should SL have a website for offline IMs and more when it didn't originally have it?

Why should SL have mesh clothing if it didn't originally have it?

Why should SL have voice, private estates, aircraft, teleports, IMs, and a host of other things that were not in the first one, hmmm?

Answer: Because that's what the customers who pay the bills wanted. And people thinking that their precious code is somehow blessed by God and untouchable and free from critique are part of the problem at LL. There are many problems in LL from the codebase to the architecture, and everywhere in between. Claiming only the game's creator can have vision or ideas for improvement is no different than LL's sticking its head in the sand and saying "Problems? We don't know about any problems..."

Iris Ophelia

Although there are a lot of people on both sides, the majority of those in the thread still seem to like the breastless Charr females just the way they are. Does that change your opinion then, shockwave? If it's what the majority of the paying customers want...

Also, software and UI changes and additions are completely different than altering designers' race or character concepts. Boobs aren't a gameplay feature. A more accurate comparison would be something along the lines of the producers of The Hunger Games movie going back and making the character Rue white because so many people on the internet were alarmed at her being black.

shockwave yareach

If as you say, there are plenty on both sides, then what is the harm in saying "hey, here are your pixel boobs -- you folks who want them have to increase the bust size because it's optional, and we don't want to change everyone's look who doesn't want it to change."

Again; simple. Everyone's happy and everyone can have what they want without a major change to the game or existing appearance. Granted you cannot please all the people all the time, but this is a rare case where you can give both sides what they want.

Austin Walker


I appreciate your passion for co-authored virtual worlds, but we have to accept that not all spaces are crowdsourced or consumer driven to the same degree.

SL is a platform for creation as much as it is a creation itself. Linden Lab's own vision was one that allowed for meaningful user innovation and modification.

But Guild Wars 2, like many games, is a product created by a specific group of people who have an artistic vision that they are bringing into reality. This vision is an intricate combination of themes, images, writing, and ludic systems. Many of these allow for some player creativity: avatar customization (which Iris has covered before); personalized, dynamic music playlists in place of the originally recorded score; and character builds (combining a set of weapons, skills, traits, and equipment) which create a style of play, just like you'd create a visual style for your character.

So lets not think of this in binary, on/off terms. It isn't that SL offers freedom and GW2 offers none. It's that LL set out to make that freedom core to the product, while Arenanet aims to release a polished, authored experience that also allows the player to perform creatively, in a limited way.

Not all products can or should be SL. Its uniqueness is one of its most attractive elements, after all. But beyond that, there is value in giving authors the tools to create coherent works. At some point this question clearly came up at A-Net, and they decided that for some reason--visual, thematic, tonal--Charr should be represented a certain way.

They made the same kind of decisions regarding the architecture and layouts of the major cities, the skills of each of the player professions, and the many narrative elements that a player encounters. They did this in an attempt to produce a consistent, meaningful experience.

This is a long winded way of saying "They have their reasons." I'm fine with you wanting Charr to have boobs, but less fine on you insisting that it's somehow the RIGHT thing for them to have boob sliders. Should the world also be modifiable for each player? Should I be able to turn off a profession I don't like because they always kill me in PVP? Should I be able to remove all characters I don't like from the story? At what point do you want to draw the line, and say that what the authors have created is theirs?

SL is a wonderful platform for creation. The platforms and tools for creating a product like GW2 are out there. If people want to create a world more tuned to their vision, then they can and should absolutely go down that path. I wish them luck...

And, I would hope for them that they are not limited by "what the customers who pay the bills" want from them. In that scenario, where all creation is purely motivated by financial gain and their is no artistic drive or vision at its core, we'd be left with carefully focus tested, economically designed, and truly exploitative kitsch works. Subcultures would not be allowed to grow--unless, of course, it was profitable to let them do so.

Arcadia Codesmith

Charr have never had breasts before. Unless you introduce plastic surgery as a crafting skill, there's no reason they would suddenly grow a pair (or, given their feline roots, three or four pairs....)

I'm all for options and customization, but let's keep them within the established framework of the specific virtual world.


I'm not very happy with the character design or the armor options for females.

All the female character faces seems skewed to portray females in early adolescence paired along with skimpy armor styles. I find it extremely creepy. The one mature character face they offer for females doesn't fit with the stupid armor.

I don't really care if someone wants to add human characteristics to the Charr avatar.

Truthfully, complaining now won't do a thing. The avatars that are designed now are set in stone. Done. Finished. Considering most of the complaints I've seen during Betas are about avatars and armor styles, I'm surprised game developers don't do more to expand options in the initial planning stages.

Orca Flotta

There are other ways to make female charrs look more female. Give them earrings, horn polish, sexy ruffled mini skirts, scarfes, high heels, platin blonde manes and cellphones they can blabber in all the time. Next step: why not having dance clubs and boutiques?

foneco zuzu

Lol Orca:)

shockwave yareach

Austin - while I understand where you are coming from, the trend in all MMOs is toward MORE customization and individuality in appearance, not less. And no, it's not the same as being able to say you don't want to fight X monsters and pull them from the game. Customization of your appearance does not and never has changed the gameplay or what you have to do to achieve X or Y. It's mere eyecandy is all.

But it's an eyecandy that more and more customers are expecting to have. In MMOs, people expect to be able to differentiate their appearance so they don't look like everyone else in the game. That's armor, clothing, shoes, and yes, body shape. Telling the customer that they have to look like Barney Fife because... well, because WE SAY SO only works until the customer sees a different game by a different publisher that gives them what they want. And then they take their money there.

Me, I don't play that game, and I'm not female nor do I play females. So I have no real "dog in this hunt" so to speak. I'm just saying that if others have breasts, what's the problem with all females having them in the world in a future revision? Or are you afraid the inclusion of extra mass in the female form will give them an unfair strike power against red dragons? (There I was, sitting on my hoard and minding my own business, when these 4 chicks burst in, flashed their boobs at me, beat me senseless while I was staring and then took all my stuff!)

Pussycat Catnap

You have to have bought the game to even read that article right?

I can't seem to find a way to make a forum account anywhere.

They need 'boobs'. Sorry, but alien or not they are played by humans. And that is a basic part of sexual-dimorphism that triggers us to think 'feminine'. I'd argue that its the number 1 visual cue.

In the transgender community, the first-thing almost all the pre-ops go for is hormones to grow mammaries. Long before they consider a swap out of parts below... this is -the- thing that helps them feel as if they are in the body they identify with. Despite internal organs still being male; this is where comfort of self-identity lies.

In breast cancer survivors, the major trauma is often over the loss of identity caused by removal. Joke as much as we do about people who get cosmetic boob jobs (about as pathetic as men who do the same form of enhancement, really)... for cancer survivors, this is a seriously important issue towards feeling as if you still have yourself.

A char female, with no boobs, is just a male model with a kitty-cat head...

Its just wrong.

Actually has me rethinking my desire to play GW2. But since I can't tell them how much this bothers me without buying it first... they'll never know how many purchases this is going to lose them.

Pussycat Catnap

"Truthfully, complaining now won't do a thing. The avatars that are designed now are set in stone."

Go read world of warcraft blogs about the development of the Worgen female model. It was changed this late into development because the teenagers with mental issues started complaining it looked too much like a furry...

So they gave it a nasty snarl. And now they all complain it looks too mean and ugly...

So this time around, with their new Pandas, Blizzard got out pictures of the female as soon as they could...

The design of female models in 3D games is a VERY big button issue right now - these things are still getting drawn by men who either don't play them, or play the one with the cutest butt-wiggle...
- and they're still almost always made -after- the male model is made...

At least in the art community, DAZ3D has it right. They always do 'Victoria' versions first, since that drives 99.99% of their sales, and then tack on Michael later by morphing/re-modding Vicky over to a man. :D

Gahum Riptide

"A char female, with no boobs, is just a male model with a kitty-cat head...

Its just wrong."


Wrong... Really?

Gahum Riptide

You know what this reminds me of? The Elin Panty Scandal in TERA.

Similar leaps of logic, emotional appeal and "it's what the fans want!" comments were thrown out there as well.

Pussycat Catnap

Yeah you can take what I type of out context to show an intentional desire to not understand my point... which really does you more of a disservice than me.

Or you can try to see what I said...

Eleri Ethaniel

What amuses me the most is seeing some of the same people complaining that that female Norn and humans are supermodels with big boobs. Boobs on a Charr would look downright stupid, and take away from the complexity of the race.
Thank the Maker for Arena Net, for making realistic non-human races, instead of making all their races basically human-with-funny-skin.

Thor Direwytch

If these things are cats then give them eight nipples like female cats have, with them only showing when they are nursing, ie never.

Arcadian Vanalten

I personally like the Charr just fine as they are. I'm a heterosexual male, and I like boobs, TYVM, but the Charr aren't supposed to be cuddly or sexy. These were the guys who obliterated Ascalon and served as the first big antagonists in Prophecies and, to a lesser extent, Eye of the North. I like that they have a sexual dimorphism that doesn't look like "human in bad makeup" personally. Just works better w/ the lore. Having Omaha the Cat Dancer would be asking for an awful lot of retconning and wouldn't really add any value.

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