Users of Free Non-Mesh Phoenix Viewer Enraged at Volunteer Team for No Longer Supporting It (for Free)

Oh Internet: The developers of Phoenix, once a very popular third party Second Life viewer, are no longer supporting the client, because it's not compatible with recent updates to the official SL viewer codebase (including mesh). That's understandable. What's somewhat confusing is that many Phoenix users are enraged by this rejection, and angry at the Phoenix team for walking away -- even though they're still working on third party viewers (the mesh-enabled Firestorm), they're a group of volunteers working on an open source project, and, you know, they gave Phoenix away for free. As team lead Tonya Souther blogs:

Ever since we announced the end of Phoenix support, people have been bitching and moaning about it... There have been a few comments recently from folks claiming to fork - or even "take over" - the development of the Phoenix viewer... One thing I don't understand is the fetish some of our haters have for accusing us of lying. We don't lie. We tell the truth as we see it. That's exactly what I've done in every posting I've made publicly, both here, on Google+, on SLUniverse, and on the LL forums.

The whole rant is worth reading if you're a Phoenix user past or present or if you're just interested in the social dynamics around open source software, but three takeaways stick out to me:

1. There's still quite a lot of people who want/need to use a non-mesh SL viewer [see update], something Linden Lab and open source teams are moving away from now (whether they want to or not).
2. There's still quite a lot of confusion around how open source software works. Because why else would people rage at a team of volunteers creating free software and even accuse them of lying?
3. Whackadoodle.

It also makes me wonder if there's a commercial opportunity here: How many people would continue to use a non-mesh viewer, if the team who supported it charged money to keep it running?

Tweet

Update, 1/15: As many readers noted in Comments, the most recent version of Phoenix is mesh-compatible to some degree, so I've corrected/updated this post.

Comments

[joker]

Parents tell their children they ate all the Halloween candy...

Jimmy Kimmel Live

http://youtu.be/_YQpbzQ6gzs

[Cube Republic]

What's the point of using a none -mesh viewer? Just so you can go around bitching about mesh? Sound like wackos to me

[Adeon Writer]

Third Party Wackadoodle indeed.

I still disagree than mesh is the reason people have trouble with v2 and v3 viewers, though. I've recommended Cool VL to anyone who has trouble with mesh and so far it works for everyone who gives it a try.

It is also important to note that it wasn't just non-mesh Phoenix support that was dropped, but all branches of it, including the Mesh-capable versions.

[Scarp Godenot]

Well the answer to the final question is very, very few. There is a particular phenomenon floating around the internet that charging for things is somehow morally wrong. Of course these people are just unaware of how the world actually works. ANYONE who works for free on open source software deserves nothing but gratitude for what they have given for free to others.

I'm not surprised at the bitching and moaning though, because the entire reason these people are still on Phoenix or previously Emerald is that they rage quit using SL viewers some time ago, again with massive amounts of bitching and moaning. Oh and I know they all have reasons, but the world isn't a perfect place and technology moves on and doesn't really care about your micro situation.

Lets just face it, these people are Luddites in the truest sense. But they are luddites of a particular type. They obviously were not that way when they first accepted the extremely high tech of a virtual world. They only became that way when things started to change for them personally. What causes this? Nostalgia... resistance to change... percieved hardware issues... whatever....

Note to these people: Mesh browsers are here to stay. And old technology becomes more of a problem than a help as time goes by. Old tech cannot be supported indefinitely.

Importantly, change is now, has been, and will ever be continuous in virtual world technology. You just have to accept that that is the way it works.

And as your numbers shrink to nothing, keep in mind that MANY people use the new viewers and are just fine, thank you.

It's a YOU problem. It is your point of view that makes you unhappy....

needed to be said...

[Pussycat Catnap]

Its not their haters that are accusing them of lying.

People with a distrust or distate of that team's Emerald history, or of the viewer - most of those folks have been with them on this move.

It is time for them to cut the line and move on.

They were quite open and quite honest about the need to make this move, and why.

Its their fans that have been making hostile accusations. They always had the irrational mouth-frothing faction among their fanbase. In the past it worked for them, now its getting in their way.

[Pussycat Catnap]

Oh and too ad: Phoenix has been a mesh capable viewer for about a year now (give or take a few months).

Anyone who thought they were avoiding mesh by using it belongs in category 3: Whackadoodle.

[CronoCloud Creeggan]

I wrote this back in late 2011:

http://ccslfashionista.blogspot.com/search?q=firestorm

But I must also say that the Phoenix/Firestorm team did nothing to discourage the "fetish" for the V1 style UI that existed amongst some of oldbies, they exploited that to gain user-share. So they should have expected the reaction they got when they announced they weren't updating/supporting Phoenix.

But really, oldbies, the V1 codebase is a creaky mess, unmaintainable long term. LL has said so, the phoenix/firestorm team has said so. Heck I think even the other V1 based viewer teams have said so.

But still, some of the oldbie "cranks" continue to use and encourage others, including newbies, to use Phoenix which is a dead end viewer. Stop that!

I only recommend using one of the following viewers:

LL's main release viewer

or

LL's Snowstorm development viewer (and other testing viewers) if you want to try to help catch issues before they hit main release (or make it into Firestorm since Firestorm is based on Snowstorm code)

or

The latest Firestorm builds, if you must have a viewer that has a V1 UI mode.

As I said in my post, I loathe the V1 UI, it hehaves like no other application I use...V2/3 UI is more "normal"

[Pussycat Catnap]

Side note: The whackadoodles who said they were going to take over Phoenix have since pulled their article.

[Nedria Cyr]

Haven't they been announcing that support for phoenix would end, for months now? It really shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone then. Also..

"It also makes me wonder if there's a commercial opportunity here: How many people would continue to use a non-mesh viewer, if the team who supported it charged money to keep it running?"

I have serious doubts that many would be willing to pay for it. It seems like those who complain the loudest are often those taking advantage of the fact that they're not putting any money into it.

[Vax Sirnah]

Yeah, the Firestorm team has been saying for quite a long time that they want to focus on Firestorm, that they see Phoenix as a dead end, that they aren't going to support it forever, etc. It's pretty much been oozing out of every single post on their site about Phoenix since they started Firestorm. When Phoenix was mesh enabled, they said they put it out there because someone else did they work and they didn't support it at all.

It seems like the ultimate reason that a lot of people complain loudly about such things is they like to complain loudly about something. That's been my primary take away from the overall SL community for years.

[Pussycat Catnap]

As the SL user base gets older, its going to be full of more and more people for whom 'change' is a four letter word.

These curmudgeons and luddites are going to scream like heck anytime anything changes out of their comfort zone.

Yes: Firestorm folks announced this in mid 2011...

V1 has been technically obsolete since late 2010...

How much time do some old cranks need?

The Firestorm team -DO- have an elitist attitude, and questionable pasts...

BUT on this one they are not lying, and have been quite open and honest about what's coming from very far out in advance.

Any rational person would look at this and call it a good feather for their cap - this is a case of them showing much better ethics and openness than their Emerald forebears.

Some will discount everything I say on this because I've not been a fan of V1 since 2009... but look at how much time they've given, how much advanced notice, and the issues behind why...

[Metacam Oh]

Anyone still using the viewer #1 or the old style viewer has got major mental issues.

You're a virtual world user supposedly on the "cusp" of technology and they can't move beyond the proverbial type writer? Give me a break.

[Iggy]

My old clunky MacBook displays Mesh fine. My SL lag and crashy days come from sim-crossings and too many scripts on a sim.

So what is this fuss about, all over a FREE product?

I'm also enraged that the Chevy dealership no longer carries parts for my '70 El Camino.

[Kylinn]

Phoenix has been mesh-capable for a while. It's not the presence or absence of mesh that keeps me using it - it's that I find the interface far more accessible for my vision difficulties, and, even more importantly, it doesn't bloody lag and crash as much. I've tried the lot of V2/3 viewers, and none of the is as clean, fast, and reliable as V1. And while I mourn the upcoming loss of Phoenix, I would never throw abuse at the folks who kept it going for us for so long.

As for those who deride the abuse being wrongfully heaped on the Phoenix team by deriding those of us who prefer V1 - get over yourselves. It's not about having the shiniest toy; it's about what works for each person. You only make V3 users look bad when you mock those who still dislike it.

[MoveOnAlready]

Well I would totally call them on their b.s. Ask LL to disallow the old Phoenix viewer from connecting to the grid. This will 'guide' users to a different-but updated-viewer of their choosing and put Phoenix to bed.

Its free, stop crying already. Sorry your computer is from 10 years ago, that's no one's fault- and I can run mesh fine on a crappy low end laptop-on Singularity mind you. So you do have a choice in viewers still.

[Adeon Writer]

"Anyone still using the viewer #1 or the old style viewer has got major mental issues."

I'll take that as a compliment. ;)

[Ayesha Lytton]

I would not call myself enraged, I've moved on to another viewer, but disappointed, yes. First, a correction to your article. Phoenix IS mesh capable and has been for quite some time. I agree that it's completely foolish to continue supporting non Mesh viewers. I know a couple of people who are still not on mesh viewers, and I make no efforts to accommodate them. I'm 99% sure that they're capable of running a mesh viewer with appropriate settings, but unwilling to do so.

Here is where my disappointment comes in. The Phoenix team is not being truthful about their reasons for not updating the Phoenix viewer. The truth is that they don't want to, despite its many loyal users. The code may well be a mess, I'm not questioning that, but they are trying to convince people that v1 viewers aren't viable, when that's simply not the case. The proof is in the pudding...there are 2 excellent v1 viewers still out there, not dead code bases but updated with SL's newest features. One is Cool VL. The other, Singularity, is almost exactly like Phoenix. There's no reason they couldn't take the Singularity codebase and add in Phoenix features like the bridge. Or at least be honest and say "We're no longer developing v1 UI viewers, but endorse Singularity and encourage Phoenix users to give it a try." Instead there's no mention, it's all about Firestorm. I have Firestorm, and it's a good viewer, but much more resource intensive, and I dislike the new top menu organization, notifications, and various other aspects that still do not mimic v1. It crashes when I try to upload images, I get notices from groups I've disabled notices from, and I miss items sent to me from individuals and groups that I do want. It's not an adequate replacement for many people with lower-end computers, power users with an established workflow, and busy people who don't have time to learn a new UI. I fall into the latter 2 categories.

It's the dishonesty about the motivations that bothers me, and failure to inform people that there are other options available. But I think they don't want to because if they did, the demands to update Phoenix would only increase. They decided to work with the v2/3 codebase and can't admit that doing so means there are still major annoyances that can't be fixed, like top menus, chiclets, and the horrible notifications. There's so much support for both branches of the project that I can't understand why they won't recruit a second team focused on Phoenix.

In the meantime, though, I'm a happy Singularity user and recommend it to anyone leaving Phoenix. Everyone who has tried it has thanked me for telling them they had another option.

[Pussycat Catnap]

Above I said:
"V1 has been technically obsolete since late 2010..."

That was a typo.

It should have been:

"V1 has been technically obsolete since late 2009..."

3 and a quarter years, just about...

Yeah, I'd say it's time to call that Chevy dealership and complain that they lied about support and the reasons for no longer keeping up your 1970 El Camino.

While we're at it, somebody get me a pyramid builder, the ones some of my ancestors in south america used should be perfectly fine housing and they've obviously lied about continued support.

[Tracy Redangel]

Actually, Jessica Lyon has made no bones that her team doesn't want to support Phoenix because.. they just don't want to. They're volunteers.
You can read the entire announcement here:
http://wiki.phoenixviewer.com/phoenix_firestorm_office_hour_dec_15

Technology moves ahead with or without you. And there's the cliche saying...YOU CAN'T RUN SL ON A TOASTER.

[val kendal]

Don't you think you should maybe fix that whole 'non-mesh viewer' mistake there in the title? I still use Phoenix in many situations, it's been mesh capable for quite a long time thanks to Jessica's team.

[CronoCloud Creeggan]

Ayesha, the other V1 viewer based dev teams have also said that it gets harder and harder to keep those viewers working with the grid, and that sooner or later they simply won't have the manpower/time necessary to do it. As was said in one of the linked articles, it took Henri the same amount of time to add just one feature, mesh to his viewer as it did for the firestorm team to migrate from the 2.8 to 3.1 codebase.

In other words, if LL adds a new feature to the viewer, the Firestorm team can incorporate it almost immediately, the V1 based viewer teams can't do that.

Sooner or later, there won't be any Singularity or CoolVL either, unless they switch to the v2 codebase.

As for performance issues, V2/3 based viewers are superior to v1 based ones. I've seen hard numbers in region testing with some other folks as part of some EM duties. I shouldn't be able to get better performance on my machine at the same settings, with Snowstorm, than someone else does with better hardware running Phoenix....but I did.

And I do know there's plenty of people running SL on hardware that LL does not recommend running SL on. LL needs to get a little more forecufl in stating the system requirements.

As for crashing on upload, known issue. Happens on Linux too with Firestorm AND the LL viewers. I suspect proper 64-bit builds would fix it, but neither LL or the Firestorm team has gotten around to do that. though I don't know for certain. If you're running Windows, turn off Skydrive.

[SingularityFan]

@Crono

Singularity is purely v3 based under the hood. Check your facts. Thank you.

[Arabella Jones]

With my eyes, in the V1 days I needed to use one of the alternative colour schemes. I take the trouble to set up my monitor to get the best contract and brightness, but Linden Lab default colours suggest an abnormal defree of colour blindness amongst the staff.

V2+ has never supported the alternatives out of the box. There's somebody providing the changed skins by using alternative XML files, but Linden Labs gives no support. It's clear that they could do something, but they don't care to. Each new viewer version needs a new set of files.

Changing to Firestorm was a big jump, but it shared with Phoenix the ability to use a colour scheme that better suits my eyes. There are elements of the design, coming out of Linden Labs, which need attention, but I've given up on the idea of Linden Labs listening to customers.

Example: Using the Outfits system. How many different outfits do you use? Can you organise them adequately, using the Outfits window?

Don't the Lindens ever change their clothes?

The Phoenix/Firestorm team actually paid attention to the users. They provide excellent support. And that does make the end of Phoenix support feel more painful.

When it comes to the Lindens, it is not unknown that I resort to litotes when I describe them.

[Henri Beauchamp]

@CronoCloud:

The Cool VL Viewer is no more Snowglobe-based than Snowstorm is !

Almost all of its non-UI related code has been updated to match v2/3's viewers. The whole set of underlying libraries (indra/ll*/ libs), the whole renderer (matching exactly v3.4's renderer), the whole avatar classes (including the very latest server-side baking stuff), the whole media code (with full shared media support !), the textures, objects, caches, network code and, in fact almost everything was updated to be on par with latest v3 viewers' code !

The Cool VL Viewer is now pretty much a v3 viewer with a v1 UI !

Stop spreading FUD, please and instead follow the link here to read the FAQ I wrote about such FUD items: http://sldev.free.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=584

Henri.

[CronoCloud Creeggan]

Henri, thank you for the information, I truly mean that.

But you probably need to inform your userbase as well, since "they" refer to CoolVL as being a V1 viewer. If LL could turn of the Legacy support in the servers and CoolVL would still work, then it's no more a V1 Viewer than Snowstorm or Firestorm.

Ive seen people claiming that they can't run a V3 viewer with the new renderer on their machine but then mention running CoolVL.

[Henri Beauchamp]

@CronoCloud:

The information is clearly given on the Cool VL Viewer website. It's just a matter of reading it !

This said, don't turn the tables: when *you* post affirmations, you should really have checked first that they are true !

[Shockwave Yareach]

Well, not all us oldbies use V1 anything, nor want to. I use the LL viewer and take a little bit of hazing for doing so. While it isn't perfect, neither are any of the other viewers out there. At least when I use the LL viewers, I know there are professional programmers who are being paid to work and improve it.

And while these programmers do not get the luxury of deciding what does and doesn't get put into the viewer (failure to improve is but one body atop the pile at Linden Labs), I at least am assured that the viewer does that and nothing more. Which is not something I can say about open source code, either empirically or theoretically.

[elizabeth (16)]

Iggy - "I'm also enraged that the Chevy dealership no longer carries parts for my '70 El Camino."

+

i am rage that you even got a '70 El Camino. even if i have no idea what that is. sounds awful tho!!! google is not my friend either. i am rage about that as well btw

(:

[Arcadia Codesmith]

Nerdrage: don't take it personally. They do it to everyone.

[DoctorBill Skywalker]

It's not just cranks and Luddites. When I travel on business, I sometimes end up in hotels whose firewalls don't allow V2/V3 viewers to work, generating the "DNS lookup fail" bug which intermittently plagues Mac users. I keep a copy of Phoenix handy because it's the only mesh-capable viewer out there that can get me into SL when I'm stuck in such a place. (Since the company chooses the hotel, I have very little choice here). If anyone has bulletproof fixes for the DNS lookup fail bug, I'd love to hear them -- I've tried every fix ever posted on Google or SL / Phoenix / Firestorm user groups. Spending upwards of $400 USD for VMWare Parallels and WIndows-in-a-virtual-machine doesn't appeal...

[ZZ Bottom]

There is only 1 viewer that matters!
To bad its only for windows 64b, to bad it requires a good hardware, to bad sometimes is creator is a jerk!
Its without a doubt the best!
its name:
Niran viewer!
After using all viewer your can name off, any knows that what im saying is the simpe truth!
And yes, Niran's incorporates a lot of other's tpv developements, so I not trashing any other viewer, but simply stating the truth!

[Tonya Souther]

Ayesha, as both Henri and the Singularity fan have pointed, out, neither one is a V1 viewer any more. They're both V3-based with the V1 user interface welded on. They're viable in the long term, though they'll still have more work to do than the Firestorm team will to integrate new advances in the platform.

To do that with Phoenix would be a mountain of work, probably a year or so. It's not a case of not wanting to. It's a case of not having the resources. Even porting the Phoenix feature set to Singularity would be a massive undertaking, given the difference in the codebases.

So, no, we're not lying, and I'm really getting very, very tired of being accused of it.

Yes, we've told people there are options available. It's not our job to tell them what, though, especially since it's ridiculously easy to find alternatives (hint: Third Party Viewer Directory).

If you use and like Singularity, great, have fun, more power to you. Just don't accuse us of lying.

[Moni Duettmann]

I want to thank the Phoenix developers for helping me live through the times, when the Linden-V2-viewer was a mere desaster. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

[LL user]

I think anyone who is lamenting over the demise of phoenix should do what i did.. move to singularity and never look back. Let firestorm go where it will, the exodus of users from their platform is of no concern to them, they told us so. In fact they want us to go... i wish the firestorm team well.