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Wednesday, March 06, 2013

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Adeon Writer

We need Windows Explorer-style folder-window inventory directory browsing.

Fair warning: I'm about to repeat the above line, this time in all caps.

WE NEED WINDOWS EXPLORER-STYLE FOLDER-WINDOW INVENTORY DIRECTORY BROWSING.

Hamlet Au

Are you saying we need Windows Explorer-style folder-window inventory directory browsing?

ZZ Bottom

All this just means that Sl is not for dummies!
And please stop lobbying about excess inventory, you don't build do you?

Kim Anubis

No one has ever offered a solution to the question of why someone can't just stuff their inventory into a prim to avoid a limit. Would you then advocate a limit on the content of prims or the number of prims you can have content in? What then happens to prefab houses, or entire regions, that come out of rezzers, or complex game systems with many layers of nested content?

Some of us hold massive inventories because we just built or purchased that much stuff in nearly a decade. I can't imagine how many days it would take me to go through all of my holdings, and if I didn't have to do it for business reasons I'd sooner quit than do something so time consuming and tedious. I also can't figure the ballpark estimate of what I paid for inventory I hold. More than I can afford to throw away.

Three approaches possible ...

1. Hard inventory limit. If someone doesn't clear out enough items by whatever the deadline is, do you automatically delete the oldest stuff, or what? There would be a flurry of folks contacting attorneys or just bitching in the blogosphere about quitting SL because they already paid for these things, are given no way to export them for external storage, and now there's a new fee to keep what they already bought. Would be uglier than the Homesteads debacle.

2. Charge a fee for inventory over a certain size. This is a tax on oldbies and merchants and anyone else who creates a lot of stuff, and we already pay a lot of the freight. Might be the straw that breaks the backs of a bunch of camels, so they might have to grandfather older inventories. But there is already a growing problem of tension over this sort of thing, pitting oldbies and newbies against one another yet again, which isn't a good idea. Newbies are already increasingly disadvantaged, and this would be an added financial barrier to becoming a merchant, etc.

3. Impose inventory limits, but offer a way to export content for external backup. This would be great, but can't happen, because of potential liability. The Lab has no way to know who owns what IP rights, which in some cases have nothing to do with the inventory flags set on items inworld.

That was the business-me talking. Here it is from the heart. The size of my inventory doesn't discourage me from logging in ... I am proud of the stuff I built, and you would be surprised at how many old inventory items from 2004 I still use. I wouldn't want to build any more stuff or go shopping if I had to screw around culling to make room. This is my happy fantasy world where
I can fly or turn into a robot. What a buzz kill, to have someone tell me my avatar's closet is too full to buy another pair of shoes! Ridiculous.

Kim Anubis

As Adeon said, what we need is a new UI. LL would be nuts to discourage people from holding inventory, which would discourage them from buying or building things. The inventory isn't the problem -- the problem is the UI.

Adeon Writer

ZZ, I don't know if Hamlet builds, but I sure do,

I also script, and mod custom avatars, which means my inventory gets even MORE cluttered.

So, let me say it in no uncertain terms. Inventory managment is a nightmare.

How organized would your desktop/laptop be, if you could only access your files via a single, tall, tree list, as the SL inventory does?

I can't answer for everyone, but my answer would be "not hardly" - I'd just let the dang HHD fill until I need a new one. If it's too hard to be organized, why bother?

2013

If anyone is holding onto inventory from 3+ years ago, it needs to be deleted (few exceptions like scripts). Builds, textures, skins, hair, clothes from that long ago are out of date and just bad. I would even say 2 years ago, but I know a lot of people refuse to take off that skin/hair, or delete that house from years ago.

Adeon Writer

^Over my dead body.

Arabella Jones

Deleting old stuff has some merit, but you might be surprised how much of the old stuff, even free stuff, still looks good as part of an outfit.

Texture-layer clothing why do you think it's obsolete because of scults or mesh?

This is like saying Casablanca is a bad movie because it doesn't use colour film or stereo sound. None of the new technology stops money being spent to make bad movies.

HALEY Salomon

I have under 7 k in my inventory ,,I buy A lot of stuff and have a few alts to hold the trans things , every time I log in I take a few min to clean my inventory I took a class on how to do this 6 years ago ,,, I think one of the reasons we don't go to other worlds is the time and money invested in inventory stuff BTW today I have a outfit on from Dazzle ,, has to be 6 years old and still wonderful

realitinfool

@2013

You use SL your way, I will use it MINE. You don't get to tell ME or ANYONE what's not 'useful' or 'worth holding on to in SL'. Keep your fat nose out of my inventory, commie. Thank you.

Kim Anubis

"2013" lives under a bridge and eats goats.

Seicher Rae

SL inventory management is a nightmare, I think all agree to that. I've been wrestling with trying to get my 20K inventory to where I can use it.

The idea to pay to have a large inventory is horrid. Maybe if we had a system in place to manage it, I'd reconsider. As was stated above, adding a tax on top of the mess would be adding insult to injury of the broken camel's back and a few more mixed metaphors!

Like so much of SL it needs a total rehaul and I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for LL to be responsive.

CronoCloud Creeggan

Really Hamlet, not this again.

I have 74683 items and it sure doesn't discourage me from logging in and acquiring even more stuff.

As for the length of the tutorial and video, it's because they're not very good tutorials! Any fashionista worth her inventory could describe inventory management in fewer words and time.

Also the video is based on Sl 2.6 viewer and is almost 2 years old. It recommends doing things in a more complex way than it needs to and goes into more detail in describing things than it probably should have, probably because Torley is a nerd, and not a fashionista. Who needs to rez inventory in-world or use a temp folder when you can just open a second inventory window and organize and drag and drop as one sees fit.

In other words:

1. Open a second inventory window.

2. sort/search as needed,

3. create folders to organize how one desires, you can use special characters to make some folders be closer to the top than they normally would be alphabetically. For example I have a !Skins folder in my Body Parts folder. and in the Skins folder my current skin makers skins are in a folder with a ! in front of it as well., currently it's !Belleza

4. Drag and drop. Just like in a standard file window in Thunar, Nautilus, Windows explorer, Shift Clicking and control clicking work as usual. YOu can also use the filters to show only what you want to see.

5. your inventory doesn't really need to be organized anal retentively...because we have inventory search. If I'm in the mood for a truth hair but haven't decided on a specific one, I can type "Truth" in inventory search and show my truth stuff.

Inventory management is easy, though if you tend to acquire lots of stuff, it can be time consuming which is why many fashionistas recommend not putting it off and organizing your items as you acquire them (which I do for Hair)

@2013

I consider the term "delete" to be a dirty word that I do not acknowledge the existence of. How can one win SL if one doesn't own it ALL! As it is I feel such shame as a fashionista for my tiny inventory, I just haven't been shopping enough.

Also, someone has to keep the history of SL alive and some of that history is in the "stuff".

@Adeon

Your "folder-window" Thunar/Nautilus/Dolphin style navigation is a good idea.


CronoCloud Creeggan

Really Hamlet, not this again.

I have 74683 items and it sure doesn't discourage me from logging in and acquiring even more stuff.

As for the length of the tutorial and video, it's because they're not very good tutorials! Any fashionista worth her inventory could describe inventory management in fewer words and time.

Also the video is based on Sl 2.6 viewer and is almost 2 years old. It recommends doing things in a more complex way than it needs to and goes into more detail in describing things than it probably should have, probably because Torley is a nerd, and not a fashionista. Who needs to rez inventory in-world or use a temp folder when you can just open a second inventory window and organize and drag and drop as one sees fit.

In other words:

1. Open a second inventory window.

2. sort/search as needed,

3. create folders to organize how one desires, you can use special characters to make some folders be closer to the top than they normally would be alphabetically. For example I have a !Skins folder in my Body Parts folder. and in the Skins folder my current skin makers skins are in a folder with a ! in front of it as well., currently it's !Belleza

4. Drag and drop. Just like in a standard file window in Thunar, Nautilus, Windows explorer, Shift Clicking and control clicking work as usual. YOu can also use the filters to show only what you want to see.

5. your inventory doesn't really need to be organized anal retentively...because we have inventory search. If I'm in the mood for a truth hair but haven't decided on a specific one, I can type "Truth" in inventory search and show my truth stuff.

Inventory management is easy, though if you tend to acquire lots of stuff, it can be time consuming which is why many fashionistas recommend not putting it off and organizing your items as you acquire them (which I do for Hair)

@2013

I consider the term "delete" to be a dirty word that I do not acknowledge the existence of. How can one win SL if one doesn't own it ALL! As it is I feel such shame as a fashionista for my tiny inventory, I just haven't been shopping enough.

Also, someone has to keep the history of SL alive and some of that history is in the "stuff".

@Adeon

Your "folder-window" Thunar/Nautilus/Dolphin style navigation is a good idea.

Jessicka

Sounds like people need to stop keeping excessive inventory and actually manage their shit.

Been playing for 7 years, have less than 1.5k items, because I'm not an idiot who keeps every item ever.

2013

@realitinfool

I'm guessing your one of those stuck in 2007?

Look, like I said, outside of some scripts, stuff that old, looks old, dated! I love Hamlets new look that Iris put together for him, but up until when Iris dressed him, he looked dated. (just an example)

realitinfool

@2013 again

It's not about fashion. It's about freedom. What part of that don't you understand?

Archangel Mortenwold

After a couple of years watching my inventory get crazy-cluttered, I finally buckled down and got it organized. I've gotten it down to a point where I have a pretty good idea where everything is. Packages for clothing go into the objects folder with a subfolder containing its own subfolders, organizing clothing according to type: shoes and boots, full outfits, shirts, pants, and so on. Likewise, unpacked boxes go into like-named subfolders within my clothing folder.

The best way to practically organize inventory is to start as early as possible, preferably on Day One. Failing that, do it as soon as possible. Here's how I organize my inventory these days.

Objects Folder
> Packages
> Clothing Packages
> Complete Outfits
> Head Gear
> Glasses
> Hats
> Jackets and Coats
> Coats
> Jackets
> Pants
> Shoes and Boots
> Boots
> Shoes
> Swimwear
> Underwear

This way I can keep my inventory organized so I know where everything is. In my clothing folder I have the same subfolder organization, so that again, everything is in its own subfolder according to clothing type. It's a bit of work, but much better than the alternative of letting the inventory become a cluttered mess.

Archangel Mortenwold

Oh, and Hamlet, you're just plain wrong about charging people a fee for the privilege of maintaining their inventory. It's the surest way to drive people off of SL for good, especially people with large inventories who stand to lose a lot of money.

There's also no effective way to enforce such a fee. People can pack up their inventories into object boxes to try and avoid being saddled with it, but the sheer inconvenience of that alone would be enough to drive people away. Furthermore, what's to stop someone from removing his or her payment info? Does Linden Lab then drive that account's balance into the negative to the point where it is closed out?

Your ideas to pass the cost burden onto SL users to make up for Linden Lab's poor business decisions are highly reminiscent of the Lab's, and frankly, the Lab's ideas haven't worked out very well. Maybe it's time to start listening to what your readers have been telling you.

elizabeth (16)

what cronocloud and others said. 2 inventory windows the secret to uberfast inventory management

make a folder called **** bin ****. so it always end up next under Trash in default view

open 2nd inventory window. filter **** bin ****

then drag/drop folders and items from 1st window to the 2nd window bin

then either forget about the bin forever and dump anything else into as you go

or go in there sometimes and box stuff up like Kim said and move to *** archive *** folder. or just trash them

put all the stuff I use regular in folders under the system folders. Body parts, Clothing etc

I usual put regularly used rezzables in folders under Animations bc that always at the top in default view


Winter Jefferson

"If a veteran user's inventory grows to become so massive and unmanageable that they'd have to spend hours to keep it trim, they steadily lose their impetus to access it at all." ~ Hamlet

Yeah um no. Mine occasionally creeps over 100k until I beat it down to the 70 mark with a nine tailed whip. Yet you will *never* stop me from adding to it, or from rummaging through my crap and finding great shit from 2008 that's still fun today - noob launcher anyone? It's going to take a damn sight more than an umanageable inventory to kill my love for Second Life and the treasures contained within.

Kim Anubis

One day, when he/she is older, 2013 will realize his favorite outfit has gone out of fashion, but he'll feel like wearing it anyway. He will go forth in it, only to encounter on some street corner a pack of junior high kids who'll point and snicker. At that time, he will join the ranks of adults and understand what the heck the rest of us were trying to explain to him here.

Btw, Jessicka, it's not the size that counts.

Alberik

It really is extraordinary how all SL's problems derive from irresponsible users and have nothing to do with a UI that dates from circa 1998.

Rin Tae

Here we go again ... SLs problam are always only the users and the fact that they still spend money, build, have fun and actually use the world <.< .. stop that! Everyone! Stop enjyoing SL! We are the problem and LL did nothing wrong at all .. never... ever!

Anyway .. on to the serious response:

As I have written already in a response when this silly idea has been outlined for the first time charging for inventory or putting limits onit would only make the economy in SL slow down or stop outright because people will now think twice before they buy anything new. And when less are buying why should creators create and sell new things? It wont be profitable since they too will have to pay more for their own inventory too ... I don't think that I ever heard of an example where rising the cost on a product in problems and creating barriers for people who are still happy in using it ever helped it in any way.
If LL want to get it up and running better again they wont achieve it with additional costs and barriers. They will only get it with investment, lots of work, creative ideas and by giving people a reason to come in and join. By giving them something that they see as good enough to be spending money on. Something they see as fun and what they are happy to be using. Hitting people with a stick repeatedly and creating barriers both for consumers and producers wont get anyone anywhere ... besides maybe those working in LL on the road to find a new job because the company failed.

And my own inventory is around 36.000 (7 years in SL now)items right now and in a constant state of being orgenized. Parts are perfectly orgenized others not so much but getting better each time I spend a few minutes to bring order to yet another folder. Those items have been bought in 2007, 8 ... up to just yesterday. Some are old but still better then many things that can be bought today and many others could not be replaced because the shops are long gone ... and I still wear and use them.
I also have around 200 outfits set up (I jsut love to mix and match them) for various occasions in my outfit-folder. I manage them, delete some, update others and usually create at least one new per day (inventory links have been one of the best additions ever) since I also change my look daily ... and not once every few years like some others seem to be doing ;P

I would very much wish for a better inventory set up since the way it is done is far from perfect or even far from actually being just good. It works but not as good as it should given that SL is a very much 'inventory-driven' expirience for many people. And not only for them but for LL as well since it is them who profit each time something is sold and added to someones inventory.

Silverfox Rainbow

i am going on 8 years in sl and i keep my inventory organized to some extant - that is keeping items in folders within folders - clothes under one scripts under another etc it takes some organization but i spend a bit each day organizing where things to go its really not hard to do

as for old items - i still have stuff from 2005, 2007 hat i well still wear - i am not crazy about mesh and there is always a need for system clothes (espcailly at laggy events) so just cause something is old doesnt mean i am gonna delete nearly half my inventory cause thats stuff stll comes in useful

Kim Anubis

Linden Lab is a company famous for innovative, disruptive application of technology. They are not famous for their community management, but for their technical ability. The suggested solution of charging an added fee for inventory exceeding some arbitrary limit is not a technical solution, does not proceed from the company's strengths, and blames the customers for using a product as the marketing department has asked them to do for many years -- buy stuff, build stuff, make it your world.

It is not as if all the programmers left the building, and it's not as if there aren't more programmers to hire. It isn't necessary to consider a dubious solution to the challenge of inventory management, such as financially punishing the most active consumers and creators, which is the sort of measure one might take if one wasn't a programmer and the traps loaded with pizza and Mountain Dew couldn't catch any. It is not the sort of solution that a software company should choose.

The user interface for the Inventory system can be improved. It would arguably cost less than the end result of an added fee, and would solve the problem instead of slapping on a bandage. Over the years, inventories are only going to grow.

This is also the correct approach to the supposed danger that the sheer weight of everyone's inventory will bring down the Lab, either costing too much to store, slowing down the system, or by causing the Battery Street office to sink into the core of the earth or something. The company makes money from that inventory storage -- land is prims is money in the bank, etc. I won't digress here into the details of how LL's income streams are tied to inventory. The point is that the correct solution -- the sort of solution that is appropriate for a company famous for its innovative disruptive tech -- is to invent improved data storage. That's the sort of thing that makes a company rich, and that is the sort of solution you can approach if you have an office full of programmers.

This is just a technical challenge for a company that solves technical challenges for a living, and shouldn't be a reason for resident to flame resident, as if this is some battle to the death over LL policy. I do find it funny that some folks seem to feel smug about their trim inventories, as if it's a moral failing to have a lot of assets in an online game (or world, or thingie). But flaming is fun, and helps pay Hamlet's bills, so I say everyone's mother stinks of elderberries!

ZZ Bottom

Btw, on open sim i dont have to bother, i just make a Iar and delete all my inventory, is still there on my hard disk!
Inworldz is offering also backup's of the inventory!
If LL has a pinch of inteligence, they would charge to allow backups on ANY INVENTORY!

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Wagner James Au
Wagner James "Hamlet" Au
Nylon Pinkney Outfitters in SL
my site ... ... ...

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