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Thursday, August 29, 2013

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Adeon Writer

I heard somewhere that the younger you are, the more immune you seem to be to this new VR sickness. Hopefully this is the only generation that will have to deal with it.

Catten

Am getting mine in hopefully a little month, and can't wait to try out SL, I'll prob do this before I start porting projects from Unity, cause it's just that more exciting. I'm bit worried about motion sickness too, I hope it isn't as bad as some describe.

Damien Fate

I'm waiting for the consumer version, which is very hard when I see all these encouraging posts.

Eddi Haskell

I cannot wait to get a consumer version of the set next year - especially if the selling price will be under $300 as they are planning. I think that this might be the killer Second Life application that sets usership booming,especially if lag rate can improve.

I expect that High Fidelity, Philip Rosedale's new company is going to design their virtual world -- or whatever they are doing -- using this as a primary interface.

If ya do not want motion sickness, then do not jerk and spin your interface around. Keep it real, and do not use this like a fighter pilot HUD interface.

CronoCloud Creeggan

What Koosbane are you guys all on to think that this is the perfect thing for SL? ARe you using the same world I use?

This thing is only good for short "tourist" style jaunts to look at scenic things... it simply is not suitable for the day to day usage of SL. Can you imagine anyone wearing this thing for more than 15 minutes? Do you know that there are people who log in for hours! Haven't you seen the reports that this thing doesn't work well with the SL UI for interacting with chat, inventory, groups and whatnot? You know, the things that people actually DO in SL?

If 3D TV using LCD shutter lenses hasn't taken off, what makes you think this thing will? It's a gimmick.

Wagner James Au

"Do you know that there are people who log in for hours!"

Yes, they are in the minority. Most SL users log in about an hour a day on average.

CronoCloud Creeggan

Hamlet, an hour is still 4 times longer than 15 minutes.

I don't understand the appeal of this thing if you have to interact with an actual UI. Sure, it might work okay for a modern day Myst/Riven, or some kind of modern version of those old multimedia "vist to a museum" CD-ROM's, or an old-style DOOM/QUAKE first person shooter with minimal UI, or for looking at some scenic region in SL you visit once for 15 minutes but anything else it simply is not optimal. Look at the video, it's a non interactive ride! No other avatars even!

This is what my SL window looks like most of the time. Communications on the left, Inventory, Places, People and Appearance on the right. It's all about communication and interaction.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cronocloudcreeggan/9629394052/

When I'm in SL, or even a game like Skyrim, I'm not just looking around, I'm doing things, interacting. Working with menus and whatnot. The Oculus Rift isn't designed for that.

I think a lot of people have fallen Silicon Valley Hype and Marketroid speak for this thing and are letting their futurist dreams of this leading to the Holodeck get in the way of the reality and practicality. You simply can't trust the Insiders and Marketroids, their job is to sell you the stuff, even if it's not practical.

There have been VR systems before...and even today, the technology really isn't there yet. No, not even the Oculus Rift, it's a gimmick.

Really, can you really tell me that people who aren't in SL right are going to jump right out and buy one of these things and start using SL simply because of this? Linden Lab would be better off ignoring this thing and marketing SL to Stay at home moms to play avatar dress up!

And I will lay odds right now that the consumer version will cost more than $300.

And I'm not trying to be a Debbie Downer here, but I was right about Blue Mars's future and all the Facebook integration in the world hasn't turned Cloud Party into the SL killer some of the cranky oldbies said it would be. I may not be a consultant, but I think I know a few things about Virtual Worlds by now.

Jo Yardley

I've worn it for a lot longer then 15 minutes, had no problems whatsoever, didn't get sick even after trying the rollercoaster demo.
I can easily see myself wearing it for hours.
The problem here is not the VR headset but the SL interface and I am sure they will eventually find a problem to figure out how we can chat and do all the other things while wearing the headset.
This VR headset revolution is still relatively new and games all over the world are playing catchup and trying to figure out how to make it work.
Give it time.

Iggy

@CronoCloud, someone will get this right, with heads-up displays for a UI and some kind of touch controller like those used in the F-22 Raptor.

Like you, I'm still less-than-convinced by the hype that this means the Next Big Thing. Better at-home gaming? Sure. Changing the world....not so sure.

Maybe US Millennials, who mean everything in terms of marketing trends, will decide that they want to invest their income and limited attention-spans on tethered rigs and systems they cannot use while socializing and moving around IRL.

That's why Rosedale could be onto something with a Glass-style piece of hardware. I could see the students I teach adopting wearable technology, finally giving up the constantly clutched smart phone. But the new hardware would 1) have to not look "creepy," as the Rift appears to look to all but techno-fetishists and post-structuralist theorists still stuck in the early 90s 2) provide a seamless way to augment RL with virtual content, from Yelp reviews for that hot new restaurant one is standing before, to bringing in a group of avatars and a virtual landscape for mixed-reality gaming. That has been John Lester's vision for a while about what could bring in the masses.

Such a device would have to do that without putting one's head into a digital paper bag.

Adeon Writer

I wonder of the lack of positional tracking is causing the sickness? I bet it would for me.

The dev kits only track rotation. Shift your head's position and nothing happens. That might cause sickness.

Once the demos all have positional tracking I bet more apple will find it less weird.

wade watts

Ive been in SL with the rift now for about 8 hours and havent felt any sickness.
It is absolutely astonishing and easily one of the most amazing things ive experienced in my life let alone on a computer.

RiftRaven

@CronoCloud It's not a gimmick if it works, and it does work. When you walk around in the real world you see things stereoscopically, with your Left eyes point of view and your Right eyes point of view. This is what the Oculus Rift is providing from the digital media its displaying. Your brains software take the images from both lCDs and decodes the stereoscopic quality creating depth. I personally think those who usually don't get 3D aren't capable of seeing their world or any digital media stereoscopically. I imagine I would feel a little let down by 3D content or the Oculus rift too, if I couldn't see things in 3D. And those who can see things in 3D just love it, me included.

Pathfinder

"I wonder of the lack of positional tracking is causing the sickness? I bet it would for me."

This. I think Adeon nailed it.

A primary cause of nausea is a disconnect between what your body *feels* and what your eyes *see*. This is why the worst thing you can do on a ship in stormy seas is go below deck and look at the motionless walls while the ocean heaves you around.

Put on Rift, swivel your head around, all is well.

Put on a Rift, lean forward, your perspective doesn't change, your vestibular system and brain go "WTF," and all is definitely not well.

Pathfinder

Forgot to add..

Right now, the Rift can track your head's *orientation* (rotations around the X Y and Z axes). Meaning it can track how your swivel your head around.

The ultimate goal that Oculus is shooting for will be to get the Rift to also track your head's *position* (location along the X Y and Z axes).

Pathfinder

Also forgot to add...

Even without positional tracking, the Rift is still damn awesome.

Graham Mills

Positional tracking: http://www.roadtovr.com/2013/08/09/new-sixense-video-demonstrates-positional-head-tracking-with-stem-and-the-oculus-rift-7442

Phoenix Psaltery

Oh, man. I can't wait to get my hands on a Rift.

CronoCloud Creeggan

But no one has answered the question:

How does this make my SL user experience better?

Oh sure, it's sterescopic 3D but we Already Have That.

http://ctrlaltstudio.com/blog/2013/04/12/a-proof-of-concept-stereoscopic-3d-second-life-viewer

I can understand why someone with a Scenic Region that's often used for Virtual Tourism might go gaga over this as a way to promote her region...but how does it make the non-tourist SL experience better.

Scripting?

Manipulating inventory

Groups? Friends?

Chatting?

Actually Building?

Doing virtual fashion shoots?

Not to mention that while I'm in SL, I'm often tabbing out for various reasons, opening a link someone posted in group chat or shopping via Marketplace WHILE I'm also shopping in SL, or tabbing out to a terminal to check SL's system usage, or checking my e-mail, or editing the pictures I just took in SL with The GIMP.

Or I could be DJing, blogging or doing other things. So I'm supposed to use this headset in SL because it makes it so awesome and immersive....but take it off to actually DO anything? And I still have to have a monitor too?

That's a non-starter for most people. Do you people actually USE SL?

And this thing is first person so it takes away people's connection to their avatar. You know the thing that has a name that they buy clothing for that they are Not Going to See while using this? Do you people not understand how important Fashion Play is to SL and the SL economy?

ZZ Bottom

Thbey dont they are just lobbying for some that les then 0.0001pct will use onsl after a first or second try, and Hamlt a lot log in for more then 1 h!

Wagner James Au

Actually, not that many, only about 133K people:

http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2009/08/sl-has-133k-hardcore-users.html

A very common misunderstanding hardcore SLers have -- just like hardcore users of pretty much *any* platform -- is that there is only one way to use Second Life that is correct and preferable and worth investing in -- which, conveniently enough, is their way. This *might* be a reasonable opinion if that userbase was growing or their revenue stream was stable, but neither is the case.

CronoCloud Creeggan

Hamlet, you should know better than to quote statistics from 2009 in regards to SL...things do change so quickly here.

Sure, there are around 100K+ hardcore users, they're the ones that matter! They're the ones owning property, spending in SL, hosting events and blogging about SL. The others might as well not matter.

As Gwyneth Llewelyn would say:

The 100,000 are the movers & shakers in SL; the economy is defined by them, through them, and because of them.

I am sure more than ever that the majority of people with an interest in a general purpose virtual world like SL....are already in SL. Sure you can do some targeted marketing aimed at adding a few more members of of certain subgroups already in SL, but trying to bring in the mainstream because the Pundits and Valleywags think that anything not growing at 500 percent is a failure is just simply...a waste of resources.

A company can make a pretty profit catering to a core niche userbase...game companies do it all the time. Atlus, Nippon Ichi, the companies that make hex based wargames. Sure they may not make Google/Microsoft level profit, but that's not a required thing you know. There is room for companies that aren't conquering behemoths, but provide a service or a need.

But no, people like you say "If it doesn't have a billion users like Facebook it's a failure." Fie on that I say...that's one of the attitudes that's ruining online communities and games...they're nothing wrong with being a niche and staying a niche. LL has made a profit for how many years now? A LOT more than Facebook has. I am so glad that LL is privately held, that way it doesn't have to put up with attitudes like yours from investors. "Waaah my stock didn't go up by 20 percent in one month...this stock is a failure"

And no, I'm not worried about region reductions... there was too much land in the first place And no, I'm not worried about the income model...because there are people still willingly paying it, even if the oldbie cranks here seem bitter. The sky, my dear Hamlet, is not falling.

So promoting this "gimmick" as the thing that will save SL is...disingenous. LL shouldn't waste developer time on adding support for this when there are more pressing issues in the client.

Rose Mackie

The kit costs almost as much as my computer. Plus, it looks just like mouselook to me.

Jo Yardley

If you have not tried it, you don't know what you're talking about.
Sorry to be so blunt about it but that is just how it is.
Try it first, then judge it.
It is not mouselook.

The main think about the Oculus Rift is not how it works at the moment but the huge potential it has for SL.
IF they can get it to work properly, it will be a game changer.

I spend my time in SL either roleplaying or building.
For roleplaying, this is the ultimate tool, also for exploring.
Being able to actually walk trough a city and be inside a house will make a huge difference.
SL will never be the same again to people like me.
OF COURSE it isn't perfect yet, and no, I do not know how they will fix being able to chat and what it will be like to try and build wearing one of those.
But I bet someone is working on that as we speak.

Why is the OR important for SL?
At this very moment a huge chunk of the games industry is trying to get their games to work with the OR.
This is a gadget a lot of people will have, if not the rift, then another VR headset.
People will use it for gaming but another HUGE market for VR will be exercise, people will want to jog on their threadmill and see a sunny beach somewhere in stead of the gym or their livingroom on a rainy day.
Once you've tried the OR, games without it will be a bit disappointing.
It is like comparing super 8 movies without sound with a movie on a big screen with surround sound.
It is that big.
The first thing you do once you've tried it is dream about your favourite games and what they will be like in the rift.

As we speak there are lots of people trying to get money together on sites like kickstarter to build a diving game, a virtual cinema, a fishing game... things that we've been doing in SL for years.
A lot (not everything) of what people who buy the rift will want to do, can already be done in SL.
And people will realise that once they have the rift that although it is nice to explore a 3d world build by someone else, it is also very cool to explore a 3d world you build yourself.
And that is when they will look at SL again.

Once again, this is what COULD happen and LL would be mad to stand back and wait, if this is indeed the VT renaissance, they have to jump on it and hang on for a wild ride.
This COULD be big for SL, maybe it won't, maybe its a craze, maybe the renaissance will not happen... but it is a risk you have to take.

Oh yeah

Well said Jo. I thoroughly concur 100%.
If you haven't tried the rift with SL you have no room whatsoever
to cast doubt on it. To compare it to sbs 3D with shutter glasses
Is laughable. The rift puts you INSIDE sl. This feeling cannot be
expressed in writing. Simply swinging in a hammock watching
a sunset is an almost profound experience.
I cannot stress enough how amazing this feels in action.
And remember. This is in the developer version of the rift with an alpha
viewer.
There are many many rift demos with fully functioning huds/ui's
that I can see their techniques being easily translated into an SL viewer.
This is not a gimmick.. Repeat this is not a gimmick.
If you haven't tried it, you honestly have no idea what you're
talking about.
As a side note . 16 hours in and zero sickness.

Emperor Norton

"If 3D TV using LCD shutter lenses hasn't taken off, what makes you think this thing will? It's a gimmick."

Go ask the US Airforce about this technology.

Wagner James Au

"you should know better than to quote statistics from 2009 in regards to SL...things do change so quickly here."

Actually, no, things haven't changed much overall -- Second Life's monthly active usage has remained flat since 2009, according LL's own stats. So it's very likely the 2009 usage patterns are similar to now. (If not gotten worse.)

"LL has made a profit for how many years now? A LOT more than Facebook has."

Actually, Facebook now makes more money in a single quarter than Linden Lab has made in its entire history. (Link below.) And as I've explained many times citing many sources (including Lindens), Second Life's revenue base is steadily, inexorably eroding -- it cannot survive with its existing niche over the next few years.

http://www.theverge.com/2013/7/24/4553942/facebooks-q2-2013-earnings-beat-expectations-on-revenue-and-profit

"Facebook's Q2 2013 earnings beat expectations on revenue and profit: Facebook is up more than 21 percent in after-hours trading thanks to a solid earnings report. The company notched $1.81 billion in revenue and earnings per share of 19 cents."

Ikkeafean Gartner

Well, after hours of use in SL with the experemental viewer without any GUI and my inpression is jsut plain AWESOME!

Yes its wery annoying having to lift the goggles to interact and to see chat, or jsut use one eye at a time.
But, even with that huge limitation, its still frikin awesome!

Some games works better and some worse with 3D. But SL in general is so 3D VR friendly its just made for this!

Personally i do a lot of combat games and the same in sl and the level of WOW it adds to thouse "minigames" is just mindblowing. Seeing the guy litterally rushing at your face swinging a sword in c;si (coombat; samurai island. the lack of distracktions, free head movement. intuitive play and everything "up close". I dont like to say it, but the oculus has made me a better player. 6 months away from the game, pick up a sword and it just works, oh so well.
Or watching the laser cannon mounted, right there, on my shoulder, so close i can headbutt it! shooting lasers the way i look in MCM and piloting huge monsters of mecha suits.

Roleplay. i would encurage making sims oculus only for rp. Allthough you can cam out in 3rd person and look around (instant motion sickness if done uncontrolled. lol) the fealing of depth and immersion is inpressive and makes things look... right...

Oculus in SL makes me smile big. and i cant wait til it hits the masses! The gaming comunity will eat it raw. Sculpties and molders the same.

As for builders. A heads up. Stop using flat prims. it makes my eyes bleed! ESP the cheap trees with just a few prims crossed with twigs. it looks awfull!
Alpha hair and tails works well and mesh is just perfect.

I hope more games will work as well as sl does with its minigames. i really do like the setup of the new release of the ctrlaltstudio viewer. For ppl that want to check it out. i recommend going to a rp sim of size and jsut wander around... slowly.... do not look sideways and walk its a nice way to barf. and do look up avi´s. What ppl do with their avis, and how that translates in to 3D... forget sex games, you got SL.
Flying, right here.

Now, if LL could coff up a working GUI. Give their sims a little more to work with, clean up in the mess of dead dried out sims and i could get a HD version of the oculus, id be grinning like a fool till they nail the lid shut. :D

Ikkefaen Gartner

zzpearlbottom

So the Rift will be perfect for Open sim grids, as you can build your own without any limit of prims allowing to create the perfect environment for its use!
It works as well already as all depends on the Viewer and the only one that is being made so far also works flawless in Open sim grids!
So i would guess that more then for SL, the rift can mean a lot more to Virtual Worlds in general and much more easy to set it on a grid without constrains as a commercial one! And i don't have a doubt that there are already some working to make it a reality, a full grid dedicated to 3D immersion!

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