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Monday, October 21, 2013


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Metacam Oh

Anyone got the cliff notes for this?

Remington Aries (SL)

I think the reason you have 'noise' in the comments is this started out as a debate concerning content creators, and slid over to being a debate about people who earn a living on SL.

Unfortunately some of the NWN blog posts that we took as concerning content creators, were clearly aimed at market place vendors, particularly the one about no impact on trading.

A great deal of SL content is delivered inworld free of cost or persuit of profit.

To people who do this, the no impact on economy post was arrogant, to put it mildly.

Hamlet Au

"were clearly aimed at market place vendors, particularly the one about no impact on trading"

That's not correct. The post was based on this question I previously posted in an open forum:

"Can you name any Second Life merchant that has stopped selling content on the SL Marketplace OR IN-WORLD as a direct result of the ToS?"

(Emphasis mine.)


Well, I'm 1 of those that makes a good percentage of my income in SL. At first, I didn't think much about the new TOS, but I have been seriously busy and working on mostly stuff for other platforms lately. This weekend, I had time to watch the lawyers, and took another look at the TOS. It's ridiculous. Totally and completely disrespectful of the content creation community. Rod is basically giving us the middle finger and telling us he can do whatever the fuck he wants.

What are my plans? I can't just pull out, but I will keep my concentration of time on other platforms. I've been expanding for years now, and those projects are showing real progress. I sincerely hope LL explains their new position, but unless they change them, I won't be putting much more effort into making more items for SL. I'll just keep supporting my current line of products.

OH, and to any Lindens that might read this. That was a dirty move, and you lost what little respect I had left for you guys.

Lani Global

Hamlet sez "Can you name any Second Life merchant that has stopped selling content on the SL Marketplace OR IN-WORLD as a direct result of the ToS?"

Many of us content creators don't want your spotlight shone upon us, Hamlet, mainly due to the possible reprisals by Linden Labs or customers.

Many content creators know each other and we talk between us and exchange ideas and items. The TOS change is a hot topic among us.

Since Linden Labs has already said, in no uncertain terms, that they are henceforth and retroactively stealing all content on their servers already, there is no sense in deleting what we have already created and uploaded to SL. We can continue to reap any benefit from that content, and we don't have much recourse on it.

The main effect this TOS change is having among content creators is to put a chill in the air and cast a pall upon our *future* in SL. It affects new creative content.

So, many have stopped uploads and slowed manufacture of new content, or are holding back to see what happens next. Some have stopped selling inworld, or are not renewing their vendor rental kiosks, mall shops, etc.

Also, there are many who are looking at other venues as an outlet for their creative talents. Some already saw this coming, and have been enjoying an "I told you so" moment :)

Lani Global

Speaking of Content Creators stopping SL due to the recent TOS changes:

Qarl, the brilliant software developer who created the 'mesh deformer' for avatar clothing and gear, said "goodbye second life". He wrote in his blog about SL TOS changes being the reason why. Read about it here:


That's content creation with a capital C.

Bixyl Shuftan

"Anyone got the cliff notes for this?"

I wrote a summary of the main discussion, though you'll still need the video for the Q & A : http://slnewser.blogspot.com/2013/10/legal-discussion-of-second-lifes-tos-by.html


Hamlet, I think the time-frame is just too short to judge impacts (other than, say, Qarl's reaction).

It resembles the situation with educators. For a few months after the Oct. 2010 change to edu/nonprofit tiers, many were still present. Today, however, the community is far smaller. How much smaller is hard to measure--I came up with one recent source listing 70 or so sims, compared to 150 or so before October 2010. At one point back then, before Linden Lab treated her like hell and issued a cease-and-desist order (all the while promoting her use of SL) I think Jokay Wollongong's wiki listed 300 or so educational sims.

A 2008 slide-share program found by a Google search lists for Scilands alone 33 unique "islands." I'm getting 15 hits now for that term using SL Maps.

So I'd look for a slow attrition as creators find other platforms and decrease their involvement in SL. Don't look for a switch to be thrown from On to Off.

Arcadia Codesmith

I regard the TOS as unconscionable and therefore void, including the arbitration clause, resulting in significant legal exposure for Linden Lab. But I'm not a lawyer. Maybe they ought to hire one for the next draft. Like, a real lawyer, not Bertie's nephew who's a paralegal.

Dartagan Shepherd

I'm really not sure whether to read this as denial or 3rd party damage control.

Seriously though, results of your own poll showed a substantial percentage of creators that were concerned and at least halting further plans.

Lawyers are talking, groups are forming.

A couple 3rd party businesses reacted.

Region decline has picked up during the last month.

At what point do you look back in hindsight and admit that it had an effect. After a mass exodus? When a half dozen large businesses leave?

It's not finished yet, but it is certainly more measurable than you're portraying here I think.

Pussycat Catnap

"That's content creation with a capital C."
- What content has Qarl created?

What impact will his departure have on the majority of SL users? One has to wonder - does the typical SL user know who he is?

Deformer is not content. First it never went live, and second it adjusts content, its a technical thing - not content itself. SL moved on and found ways to adapt to its lack.

I'm in a weird spot from some of you - I'm generally a consumer in SL. Yet I read these technical blogs rather than the fashion blogs. So I know what you folks are talking about while not being one of you.

There are basically 3 different and often isolated blog communities in SL:

Technical ones - nwn, modemworld, and some others.

Content Creator ones - I assume these exist but have not found them.

Fashion / Drama blogs - this is the real heart of SL. I don't follow them, because I was never into the 'high school drama' thing even when in high school, and certainly don't want to go back 20+ years down the road... I could care less if your prim BFF is poseball cheating on you with your meroos, frankly... But if you look at the traffic those places get: that's where most folks are at. And if you show up on the places in SL with all the green dots - it becomes obvious a LOT of them shop based on reading those blogs, or friends who read them.

This ToS change has not really hit the fashion blog community as much.

I've tried getting this point across in other ways - but those folks make disposable content at an insane pace... You go out there and buy a fullperm mesh, sculpty, or PSD - and then turn out 50 color variations of an item, with a touch based script in it to change some feature... and you then hit the fashion blogs, flickr, and some inworld groups.

If it gets stolen or copybotted or whatever... well, next week or next month you have a new 50 items... so who cares?

Your customers might only buy 3 of your colors... but you still rake it in, and you replace it so fast you don't even know what you're selling 3 months in...

That is the community where the money is all moving - its the one I suspect LLs watches now. And unless you figure out how to wake it up, there's a good chance nothing will change.

As for content creators who are looking to move on... good for you, more power to you... but how will you get me to join you?

I am your customer (you people don't even want to know how much I spend in SL every month. I don't want to know either, and I'm a small time shopper compared to the people who follow those fashion blogs)... show me why I should join you on platform X, and not the other merchant who went to platform Y instead.

Show me what will be waiting for me there, that can convince me to give up my SL inventory and community in favor of it?

Remember when I noted last week that unless a place has 10,000 concurrency, it might as well fold up shop... 10,000 - that's nothing by the standards of an MMO... barely enough to form any communities in.

Pussycat Catnap

"I regard the TOS as unconscionable and therefore void, including the arbitration clause"

One of the major points of the lawyers talking is that since 2009 and a couple more GOPers on the Court from Bush's last years - unconscionable arbitration clauses are now perfectly valid.

California's law against them was overturned by the SCOTUS.


I think Iris is right. It's very difficult to see why anyone who is making real money in SL would quit over this terms change. I've been making my living in SL for years, and I have no plans to pull out. I think a lot of people might be making a mistake in thinking that their user content has any monetary value outside SL (or inside SL for that matter).

Perhaps I will stop making content, but not because of this terms change. There are better reasons to stop making content, such as the general decline of the platform, LL's general mismanagement and failure to adequately support the system.


I don't make anything in SL, but I buy a lot of stuff. I'm that person who reads the blogs and goes to Collabor88 and The Arcade and Famished. I am kind of feeling like I shouldn't buy anything more in SL because it feels like a Linden Lab sweat shop at this point--a bunch of creators bringing fabulous things to SL, which LL profits from, and if the creators leave the Lab will still be able to sell that stuff because they own it all. It's a bit like shopping at Walmart now--someone suffered for the low prices, either the employees or the factory workers or taxpayers who support the workers after they don't make enough money to buy food... for the short term the creators will continue to make money from sales to everyday users, but what about the long term? Is my shopping habit supporting tyranny? OTOH, if LL is preparing to sell SL I could be wasting a great deal of money on things that will poof in a year or six months. It's hard to decide what to do.


@ Sansarya "if LL is preparing to sell SL I could be wasting a great deal of money on things that will poof in a year or six months. It's hard to decide what to do."

It's a game, whether or not LL sells SL, you're NOT taking those virtual clothes, jewelry, etc. with you.


@2013: I realize I can't take it with me, but the amount of time I get to use it could be limited to a much smaller time frame than I expected. I've been in SL more than eight years at this point. I've received value from what I've bought in the past eight years. I feel a bit like the band still playing on the deck of the sinking Titanic at this point.


if you read this blog, and read the comments (mostly of inactive SLers, oldbies who are disillusioned by how they wanted SL, and not how SL actually is), SL will end tomorrow, for the umpteenth thousandth time.

Pussycat Catnap

I thought SL already ended?

Didn't Blue Mars replace it in 2009?



Arcadia Codesmith

"One of the major points of the lawyers talking is that since 2009 and a couple more GOPers on the Court from Bush's last years - unconscionable arbitration clauses are now perfectly valid.

California's law against them was overturned by the SCOTUS"

AT&T v. Concepcion? That was a bizarre decision. The text of the Federal Arbitration Act specifically excludes unconscionable contract terms in Section 2. Somebody slip Scalia a briefcase of cash (again)?


@2013, since when have you substantiated any of your claims? SL won't end tomorrow, or even next year. But for those who still have some investment in this platform, the net loss of, say, 57 private regions in the past week might mean something.

But I'm just a disillusioned (sorta) oldbie who drank the Rosedale Kool-Aid in 2007 and thought SL might have changed the world for the better. Silly Iggy!


@ Iggy, you helped me with your own comment.

"But I'm just a disillusioned (sorta) oldbie who drank the Rosedale Kool-Aid in 2007 and thought SL might have changed the world for the better. Silly Iggy!"

6 years later, SL is still kickin, and 6 years ago people where preaching "the sky (SL) is falling"

Issa Heckroth

I thought it was pretty moot at this point. Everywhere I go, the general consensus that I hear from creators is "I am not pulling out, but I am not making new stuff either". I expect to see the real effects of this in 3-6 months.

Tracy RedAngel

None of the creators who've stated here that they're leaving SL for greener pastures have specified WHERE they are going. Cloud Party? Open Sim? Please, because I'd really like to know if there is another virtual world out there where I can own over 500+ different hairstyles and have enough so many outfits that I NEVER ever...not once wear the same thing every day. Anybody? *Crickets*


@Tracy: good point. For virtual world content creators who want to make serious money, there is nowhere else to go that I know of. That's why I don't think people who are making their living in SL are going to leave over this terms change. The only reason to leave is when you can't sell your stuff anymore. Then, I guess they'll have to go get a job.


Only lawyers could turn "You're screwed" into a 3-hour movie.

The sequel will be filmed in Cloud Party...

Connie Arida

Just a thought. In general, how much stuff from say( an arbitrary number) 2 years ago do you still have rezzed or wear?
I took a general look round my place and found perhaps 2% of my land impact is taken up of stuff I had from 2 years ago or more. As far as clothing goes,I perhaps use 0.1% of my inventory from even 1 year ago.
To be dangerous and extrapolate my experience onto the generality of SL, that shows you the enduring "value" of content in SL.

Arcadia Codesmith

People without wheelbarrows of disposible cash wear things for many years... in Second Life and in First Life. Mesh is a fine and wonderful thing, but there are applications for which it's overkill.

That said, a chilling effect on innovation is a more important consideration than any CYA clause from the Keystone LawKops.


A SL Fool Asked...

SL Forum 03-27-2006 Question: What would make a good competitor for Second Life?

Answer: I say Garry's Mod... GMod already gives you the ability to run your own sim, with the server option. It lets visitors come by your sim. It lets you build inside your sim; you can both save what you build and save the state of your sim; and best of all it's very possible to both import and export objects to-and-from GMod. [That was 2006, now we have GMod13 in 2013!!]


What is Garry's Mod? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garry%27s_mod

Although Garry's Mod is usually considered to be a full game, it has no game objective and players can use the game's set of tools for any purpose whatsoever. Garry's Mod allows players to manipulate items, furniture and "props" – various objects that players can place in-game. Props can be selected from any installed Source engine game or from a community created collection.

> Integrated Game + Metaverse All-in-One for one-time 20 Euros, no tiers

A SL fool's question in 2006 was the most innovative one, especially the answer was innovative, and made a lot of SL users, paying $295 monthly tiers since, to real fools...

GMod 13 Machinima http://youtu.be/fKURvGuWOso

for one-time 20 Euros, no tiers...


Alternatives to My sl now?
When i found the joy of sailing or riding a bike for endless hours without passing twice for same region?

Toysoldier Thor

In response to the short sighted question by Hamlet on asking us to name one SL creator that has closed up his/her shop because of the TOS....

I will repeat in my words what many other have well said in their comments.

LL's latest TOS basically akin to LL purposely and carelessly dumping tanker car full of toxic poison into a massive lake of artistic and commercial creators. As is the case in RL, these polluters have an utter disregard to the life in this lake - they were just happy to have discarded this toxic waste and pretend it didn't exist.

Also as in RL, once the poison from this tanker begins pouring into a lake of this size, in a short time life in the lake will die. If nothing is done quickly by the polluter to remove the tanker from the lake and take counter-measures to remove the poison, the lake will continue its path to become a dead lake.

The part that make me and so many other creators and observers of this LL TOS fiasco shake our heads is that this same lake that Rodvik & LL have purposely poisoned is the very same lake that its own SECONDLIFE city relies upon 100% for its critical drinking water!

So for some mind boggling logic Mayor Rodvik has decided that it's ok to dump this toxic poison into the lake that all his SecondLife citizens drink from.

Is this the responsible actions of any Mayor or CEO?

Luckily for some of the fish in the lake - their were small rivers and streams for them to escape to new fresh clean lakes. :)

CronoCloud Creeggan

If You don't like the new TOS, which isn't that different from other companies TOS's? Then you need allies.... and being "The sky is falling" Oldbie cranks is not the way to do it.

See those fashionistas playing Barbie PlayHouse XTREME? yeah, the ones you ignore because you want the "sandbox centric SL" of 2004 back? Well to LL, they're important because of the economy. They're also not going anywhere because of their inventories and friends. And unless they go somewhere, content won't go anywhere.

So you need the Fashionistas on your side. You get someone like Truth, Wasabi Pills, Elika, League, Belleza, Coldlogic, SLINK, Maitreya or GOS to comment on how they don't like the new TOS....then watch what happens.

But right now....they don't care about your various axes...because people are still shopping like madwomen. Just because the TOS says something doesn't mean the "sky is falling" that it is anything other than being badly worded and NOT some kind of content grab. So the content makers are going to keep making hair...because the Fashionistas "NEED MOAR HAIR AND SHOES NAO".

SL has passed most of you by, and you don't even know it.

Lani Global

A trite Barbie playhouse. Good luck with that.

The first TOS changes in 2010 caused SL to stop growing.

This TOS change of 2013 is squeezing the creative lifeblood from what is left of the SL virtual world.

CronoCloud Creeggan

Lani wrote: A trite Barbie playhouse. Good luck with that.

That's been one of the popular uses of SL for a very long time. There's always a lot of fashion centric blogs in the most popular SL blogs list. Been that way since what...2006?

After all...fashion dolls have been popular toys in RL for many many years.

A friend of mine wrote the following blog post:


which contains the following:

But Linden Lab is not playing “Barbie Play House.” They’re not even helping their residents play it. If they were, they’d be better off and a lot of residents and content creators would be happier. They’d also be closer to their own goals.

If they’d focused on getting Barbie Play House right, they’d have built a foundation that would have helped them build toward other targets. But they’re still playing boy ball, and they don’t want their product to be branded as Girlville. So, instead of helping residents optimize their virtual living experiences and developing the marketplace that exists, Linden Lab has been trying desperately to supplant their users. They’re too ashamed to engage and develop Barbie Play House because that’s what those yucky girls like. So they chase educators and businesses and any other demographic that they can like some desperate Super Grover trying to teach kids the difference between near and far.

They do this because people like Mr. Pirouz assign girl vanity as bad and scoff at it, branding it as a low-priority focus while claiming that anything which develops around such a market is doomed to an ultimate demise. I’m sure he’s a swell guy with a lot of know-how in other formats, but on this, he’s just plain off his nut.

Unlike most virtual platforms, Second Life is overwhelmingly female. For better or worse, the grid is estrogen-drenched. Despite this reality — despite the fact that women drive the SL economy — Linden Lab and those who talk about SL seem ashamed or bemused to address it. The video game industry has been built around the male ego and hand-fed male vanity. Women finally have a foothold in a platform, and it seems like no one knows how to manage it, promote it, interpret it, or embrace it.

Lani wrote: The first TOS changes in 2010 caused SL to stop growing.

Prove it. New Users don't read the TOS...the reason SL plateaued is for one reason:

The number of people with any interest in sandbox-y general purpose virtual worlds is finite. And the people with any interest in them....are already in them. No amount of whatever Silicon valley buzzword of the moment is going to change that.

Lani wrote: This TOS change of 2013 is squeezing the creative lifeblood from what is left of the SL virtual world.


Prove it. There's a massive GLUT of content in SL. One of the problems of the SL economy is that there is so MUCH stuff that it makes it hard to find the stuff you want. Pointing to a few oldbie cranks who last did something notable in 2005, and who are inactive in SL who all of a sudden are going on about the TOS changes and saying how they're not creating...does not a trend make.

In fact, that sounds more like shameless self promotion with the TOS as a convenient excuse.

If people don't like the TOS, fine...leave. Head to one of the "Little Grids" that are SL without the people. The SL of 2013 is not the SL of 2004...and you aren't going to get the SL of 2004 back.

Besides, you already have the SL of 2004 in OSgrid...why are you still here? We all know why...SL is "The Big City Where All the REAL Action Is" No matter what, SL is where the money and people are.

Kim Anubis

There are so many things wrong with that post I wouldn't know where to begin. But for starters, it reeks of sexism. It also indicates that you might not have been around when LL worked very hard to support and promote the fact that women creators and business owners were very involved and successful with SL early on, While I certainly don't agree with everything the Lab has ever done, this is one thing they worked at hard and got right, and I benefitted from it. It's one of those things about SL that some of us crusty oldbies and midbies loved about the old days. I will always cherish the memory of Cory then-Linden (who often wore a very fashionable female avatar) on a panel, battering the righteous heck out of a sexist jerk by quoting a bunch of statistics about the number of women, women creators, and women running successful businesses in SL. The Lab was especially very proud of its users' fashion industry, and made it one of their key marketing points, driven by Linden women like Catherine and Robin.

Apparently you don't know it, but you seem to be pining for the old days, too.

Anyway, fashion was never my main thing, and I got tired of dressing just my avatar and wanted to move on to dressing regions. One of SL's strengths is that it is able to support the activities of a diverse bunch of people, including men who like fashion and women who like sandboxes.

elizabeth (16)

Pussycat wrote: "Remember when I noted last week that unless a place has 10,000 concurrency, it might as well fold up shop... 10,000 - that's nothing by the standards of an MMO... barely enough to form any communities in."

if have say about 1,000 sims at $75 a month then that's pretty ok for a village store. might not be a walmart super chain but is still pretty ok i think


My grocery store has been developing mobile apps to sell their wares since oh, 2011. Linden Labs, as usual, joins the rest of the world about 2-3 years after.

I remember when Phil Linden was gushing about that new LL little attempt to clone Minecraft's success in 2012, thinking "welcome to 2010 suckers".

In how many years we will hear LL attempting to copy Steam or getting into Cloud Computing ?

Clydar Sittingbull

@Pussycat....there IS at least 1 grids I know of personally that has surpassed the 1,000 sim arena, with an economy, a 89,000+ concurrency, mesh support, better sim crossings, more freedom for its creators, and $75 sim prices for 45,000 prims per sim....no one will say its name here, nor acknowledge that it exists because it is proving to be a very viable alternative to LL

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