« Second Life Fashionistas Celebrate Halloween With Gruesome Virtual World Photography | Main | Second Life Materials Bring FATEwear's Bloodsoaked Halloween Fashions To Life »

Monday, October 28, 2013


Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Darien Caldwell

Good to see a real confirmation of intent, and hopefully new verbiage can be found to allay any fears.

Jim Tarber

Re the LL ToS game: I think it's a lot like sending recon teams across a border to probe defenses of the enemy; the military knows it's mostly a futile effort, but they want to check how far they can get, and just exactly where they are stopped.

Coincidentally (or not), this is also the approach of male teens with girls. ;)

Kim Anubis

Thank you, Hamlet, for your ongoing coverage of this story, and to Peter for the confirmation that the Lab is working on this.

Ciaran Laval

The problem remains the one size fits all TOS change. Most of the problematic areas (not all) are from the old Desura TOS. Which probably explains why there hasn't been much noise from their community, it's pretty much same as it ever was for them.

Trying to incorporate those terms into terms applicable for other LL properties is the root cause of the issue.

Shava Nerad

So, my thought is, the operative term here is "appease." The furor hasn't died down. The SL Bar Association has said, "Well, basically you're toast under these terms." And the brain drain continues.

So Gray and Humble have now said, "So, sit on your thumbs and lose momentum, you guys, and we'll throw you a bone when we're good and ready."

And when Kylie said, "Please speak to us directly?" Gray said, "Please sit and spin on your thumbs, and we'll throw you a bone when we're good and ready. No exceptions."

They don't want to give anyone the option to ask them specific hard questions. Smart man.

And if they give it time, the groups -- including Kylie's -- are likely to lose membership and momentum. Historically, the wise heads will leave the high risk environment (in this case for the non-SL metaverse) and the sheeple will stay and decide that nothing can go wrong...go wrong...go wrong...

They could prove me wrong by being community minded -- but they won't.

You're being played.


Could this be a step toward a personal wish? For a few years I have said, and the educators I know agree, that SL content and Linden dollar could become gold-standards across OpenSim grids.

Content creators might opt out of a LL-run Intergrid market, but the potential for education, at least, would be enormous. This would particularly be so for the closed and privately hosted university grids that never appear on Maria Korolov's stats.


They sure took long enough. LL moves at an annoyingly glacial pace, but their heart is in the right place. Unfortunately their foot is located in their mouth and we're currently attempting to locate where their head's at...

Metacam Oh

How many man hours are they going to dedicate 'thinking' about this. You know that's why their company is falling into a pile of shit, no one can make a decision there without having to sit and stew on it for 4 years. Remember Mesh deformer, yeah that's coming soon too right. This company is so full of crap it's unbelievable.

Darien Caldwell

and these kind of stupid insults is why LL won't engage with the community directly. Don't blame them, blame yourselves.

Metacam Oh

How many Linden Lab employees does it take to change a light bulb? They'll review it and get back to you.

Toysoldier Thor

I agree with a statement that LL's handling of this TOS release & their management of the ensuing creator revolt & damage to LL's public reputation has been atrocious.

They could have developed TOS changes that were far more politically aware and creator-sensitive (like NOT REMOVING THE LIMITED INTENT from the TOS)

They could have properly socialize the TOS wording immediately upon release that they should have predicted could potentially be perceived wrong (if it really was perceived wrong - jury still out on that).

And Rodvik could have come out of his shell during the early days when the revolt was starting to smoulder. How? A formal blog from Rodvik on the SL Forum Blogs explaining the TOS and LL's intent - which they ended up being strong-armed to reveal anyway - 2 MONTHS LATER!

If they tackle even two of the three, they would likely have taken a lot of heat from the current creator fury they now have.

As for Peter's letter to UCCSL and that the UCCSL is bring played. I doubt that. Peter, Rodvik, and LL are only fooling themselves if they think this letter quelled suspicion & anger they created. Many of us are still suspicious of LL's intent and want to see CLEAR CORRECTIONS in the TOS before we consider returning to uploading new content to SL and bury our hatchets.

Creators want to see REAL TOS changes and if LL waits months they just further the damage LL has done to their creator community.

Shockwave yareach

We used to be LLs cheerleaders. But you cannot urinate on our shoes and call it rain for too long before we tell you to quit it. And the more ll dampens our interests (and shoes) the madder we get. While I can understand their avoidance of the community, you cannot run any sort of business by ignoring your customers -- let alone ignore them for five years.

People are voting with their feet and their wallets. And like it or not, that's mainly LLs fault.

Metacam Oh

"and these kind of stupid insults is why LL won't engage with the community directly. Don't blame them, blame yourselves."

You mean customer service, or internet criticism? I could care less if LL doesn't engage with me directly, they're the morons that lose by not communicating with people. I don't believe I represent the entire community either so if they are not engaging with the community because I ostracize them in the comments of one blog, then that's pretty absurd.

Motoko Henusaki

People assume the worst. It is an exceedingly common character flaw, sadly. Kudos to LL for picking the issue up at last.

Dartagan Shepherd

You know, something merchants at least have been trying to say for some time is that all we really want is to be treated as partners.

Not as in stakeholders, but recognition of the fact that we've provided $3.2 billion (Rod's figure) worth of virtual goods sales. You would think that we'd be in the loop at least.

Their model has been land and currency, sinks and various services. LL is showing that they're more interested in taking a piece of the virtual goods as well, as land sales decline. $3.2 billion in goods is a hard number to ignore forever. This is fine too, so long as it's not too greedy (although LL tends to devalue goods far below other content sales sites).

They may try to pass off that they need these rights for us to sell to Desura developers, who will have to download our models, textures, audio, etc., to their hard drives and share it with their game dev teams. To be optimistic perhaps that's why they want to act as our agent and attorney.

We can't be sure what we're agreeing to without crystal clear reasons why we're agreeing to them and knowing what the plan is. To do that LL needs to communicate what this is "really" all about.

No product of LL's requires these full rights to operate. Agree that this didn't have to happen if they communicated clearly and were willing to be more sparing with the ToS.

Just the give and take and mutual respect on the content, that our time creating is as valuable as their own time monetizing it and not to take advantage of us in the process.

Obviously respect should extend beyond business and merchants, although this specifically targets creators IP on goods that are being monetized by LL.

LL needs to wake up and realize that our goods are worth as much or more in revenue as land and services and that we're equals in some respects, not merely users and residents.

Don't take advantage of us or condescend to us, I suppose is what we're saying.


good news, finally


@ Metacam, you're like the kid who didn't get his way and said, "I'm leaving and taking my ball with me"

Metacam Oh

@2013 Really, what ball am I taking with me?


it's a metaphor for your child like (I drank the LL koolaid and never recovered) attitude

Metacam Oh

Drinking LL Koolaid? LOL look in the mirror. I'm not the guy who takes it personal when someone makes a statement about my favorite game I don't like. Hilarious. Keep posting anonymous attacks on people who express a negative opinion about your fav game, while pointing the finger at everyone else. Who's the child again?

Arcadia Codesmith

I know I'm not the poster child for civility, but maybe we can refrain from attacking one another for having differing viewpoints?

My views towards the Lab are often cynical, but I'll reserve final judgement until I see the fix.


I'm with Arcadia on this!
But i can not let pass the fact that if one only reads blogs about Sl the idea any gets is that is some where people are to make money, period!
And that is far from the truth!



SL is so much more and Linden Lab needs to keep that in mind above all!


LL owns Metacam's ball now. But maybe they'll clarify his rights to play with it somewhere else.

Pussycat Catnap

"and these kind of stupid insults is why LL won't engage with the community directly. Don't blame them, blame yourselves."

I don't know... flamebaiters and ranting will be what they will be...

For us users yes: when some random person sinks into flames, trolling, and ranting... you ignore them.

But when you're a company in the business of owning and managing an online community, you have a duty to remain engaged no matter how illogical and ranting some of your customers get.

Other MMOs, when faced with comments like:
"This company is so full of crap it's unbelievable."
Just ignore that one user, ban them, or if more specific call them on it (a few MMOs when hit with these kinds of things in the nature of more direct accusations, have posted logs from that specific user to show truth).

Though in the specific here, you just have somebody who's broken past rational engagement, but doesn't have what would or should rise to bannable conduct.

MMO and Community running company's hold the power here - they need to be the 'adults in the room' and engage, even when some of the kids are having temper tantrums.

Ciaran Laval

@Dartagan "No product of LL's requires these full rights to operate. Agree that this didn't have to happen if they communicated clearly and were willing to be more sparing with the ToS."

Desura was operating, presumably before LL bought it too, under a lot of these rights. Now that SL and Desura have the same TOS (with the exception to the sections marked as being specific to each platform) LL have taken a lot of the rights from Desura as the default rights.

Now I don't know if Desura needed those rights to operate, or they were boilerplate and hadn't been changed. However Desura users were operating under them.

This doesn't make it ok, but it does explain why the wording has appeared.

On a side note @Hamlet do you know why Versu hasn't been assimilated under the new LL TOS? All the other products appear have the LL TOS.


Between Linden lab lack of communications skills and the rush to move to another closed grid some good will become of all this, Sl will be more about enjoying then profiting!

Dartagan Shepherd

@Ciaran: True, although the agreement was Desura in Australia. Not sure how that plays out there.

It's still overbearing and not completely necessary even for Desura in California and the U.S.

That they're saying somehow that it is, and that "we" need to give up most of our rights to sell for Desura or for them to sell our goods on another LL product on our behalf is a stretch.

Desura needs aren't really much different than SL's needs contractually speaking.

Dartagan Shepherd

@zzpearlbottom: It's not just about profit or merchants, although I think I can safely say that this is all about profit for LL.

Mentioned elsewhere that it affects any creator, whether hobby or free, who cares about their rights. Also the ToS affects open source.

Gave this example before: If you take an open source GPL script out to an external editor and re-upload it, you would be violating the ToS.

Does LL give you the right to bypass someones open source license? Probably not under this ToS. And if it did, since the ToS covers past content, then LL is violating the GPL.

If you perform original music and record it, LL could technically turn around and commercialize your song.

And on it goes.

It affects us all. If some don't care, that's fine. Others do.


Peter and his confirmation are steps toward the good direction. But what the people concerned by the TOS are waiting to resume creating and uploading is a TOS change. On a legal point of view this is the TOS that is important not LL communications even it they show good will in them. I hope that this time LL will listen to us but I'm not stupid. The trust will really come back with a TOS change.

Veleda Lorakeet

Ultimately, the current TOS is a breach of trust. One that cannot so easily dismissed with an "Oh sorry, we really meant to be nice when we said we own your shit".

So... How hard can it be to refert back before they "think how to improve it"

So we be waving at SL from outside of SL for now.


"Linden Lab Attempting to Amend Terms of Service to Appease Anxious Content Creators, Company Confirms"

So let's see here. We ruined our company over our terms of service since 2003. We've allowed children into our adult world, we've banned all adult public information to the approval gestapo, and claim to own everyone's content.

We are so sorry that we continue to allow our true colors to be shown and ask that you accept our absolute acceptance to public opinion as we work to fix our now entering decade of arrogance and unremitting dependence on your continued fixation on our beloved product.

My Opinion has not changed... not at all once....

You are so lost to not tell Linden to go fly a kite. You will keep on believing until you are broke and living on the street.

Left years ago after I broke the bond, deleted all inventory and left. That is my recommendation. You cannot win with this company even when "they" themselves were on top of the world in 2003-2006. They messed it over then, they will continue until all available assets are obliterated. This is Linden Lab.


Darien Caldwell

"Other MMOs, when faced with comments like:
"This company is so full of crap it's unbelievable."
Just ignore that one user, ban them, or if more specific call them on it"

Might work for MMOs, where the users are just that, users. But SL being a bit more than that, doing such things usually results in LL ending up in a lawsuit. Clearly it's just better all around to not engage directly rather than spend hundreds of thousands of dollars fighting off rabid Residents. And better than allowing said residents to use your good will to run over your reputation roughshod.

Probably one of the saddest examples was back in the day when LL allowed comments on it's blog and posted there regularly. It really devolved into a cesspool of negative depravity against the very people who's blog it was. Same for the JIRA, eventually. People seem unable to learn from the past.


It's a Buyer's market, not a Seller's market...

So keep up the Consumer Protection pressure.

Pussycat Catnap

I think the days of seeing SL as more than "just another small MMO" are over, as far as LLs is concerned. AND as far as many of the customers who shop and play in SL are concerned.

This is just a free MMO with a micro-transaction website for most people. Look to the popular blogs and points of communication: all about fashion, roleplay, and drama.

But LLs has also never understood community management. Thus your example of their blog devolving into such a cesspool. Good moderation could police that, and good engagement could head it off before most of it occurs.

You always get a few wingnuts no matter what you do... but you only get a whole host of them when you yourself really screw it up.

LLs is very good at turning its formerly reasonable customers into raving lunatics... better at it than almost any other "MMO" out there. Its the "talk radio" of online "gaming"...

Johnny Ming

It's been more than seven years since the Linden Lab ToS became a major point of contention with the community. It's amazing that they simply cannot put this issue to bed.


Well said Dartagan Shepherd!

Gwyneth Llewelyn

Well, I can only say that I'm glad that at least Linden Lab is 'looking into the issue', and explains their intent. I agree with you, Hamlet, ten extra words in the ToS would have gone a long, long way to mitigate the whole drama!

But if that letter means that all fears will be removed, I have no idea. After all, they can always and endlessly change the ToS, as often as they wish...


IF YOU ARE A CREATOR … Please go here –


to read up on the United Content Creator’s of SL proposed letter to Linden Labs and give them your vote for yes here –


If you believe that LL should meet with the content creators about the new TOS changes that seem to threaten the possibility of making it legal to resell creator’s content without fair compensation.



IF YOU ARE A CREATOR ... Please go here -

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-tt7l89N_zBQWZzSEF3Z3JvS0E/edit?usp=sharing -

to read up on the United Content Creator's of SL proposed letter to Linden Labs and give them your vote for yes here -


If you believe that LL should meet with the content creators about the new TOS changes that seem to threaten the possibility of making it legal to resell creator's content without fair compensation.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.


Post a comment

Your Information

(Name is required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)

Making a Metaverse That Matters Wagner James Au ad
Please buy my book!
Thumb Wagner James Au Metaverse book
Wagner James "Hamlet" Au
Wagner James Au Patreon
Equimake 3D virtual world web real time creation
Bad-Unicorn SL builds holdables HUD
Dutchie Evergreen Slideshow 2024
AWE USA discount code
Juicybomb_EEP ad
My book on Goodreads!
Wagner James Au AAE Speakers Metaverse
Request me as a speaker!
Making of Second Life 20th anniversary Wagner James Au Thumb
PC for SL
Recommended PC for SL
Macbook Second Life
Recommended Mac for SL

Classic New World Notes stories:

Woman With Parkinson's Reports Significant Physical Recovery After Using Second Life - Academics Researching (2013)

We're Not Ready For An Era Where People Prefer Virtual Experiences To Real Ones -- But That Era Seems To Be Here (2012)

Sander's Villa: The Man Who Gave His Father A Second Life (2011)

What Rebecca Learned By Being A Second Life Man (2010)

Charles Bristol's Metaverse Blues: 87 Year Old Bluesman Becomes Avatar-Based Musician In Second Life (2009)

Linden Limit Libertarianism: Metaverse community management illustrates the problems with laissez faire governance (2008)

The Husband That Eshi Made: Metaverse artist, grieving for her dead husband, recreates him as an avatar (2008)

Labor Union Protesters Converge On IBM's Metaverse Campus: Leaders Claim Success, 1850 Total Attendees (Including Giant Banana & Talking Triangle) (2007)

All About My Avatar: The story behind amazing strange avatars (2007)

Fighting the Front: When fascists open an HQ in Second Life, chaos and exploding pigs ensue (2007)

Copying a Controversy: Copyright concerns come to the Metaverse via... the CopyBot! (2006)

The Penguin & the Zookeeper: Just another unlikely friendship formed in The Metaverse (2006)

"—And He Rezzed a Crooked House—": Mathematician makes a tesseract in the Metaverse — watch the videos! (2006)

Guarding Darfur: Virtual super heroes rally to protect a real world activist site (2006)

The Skin You're In: How virtual world avatar options expose real world racism (2006)

Making Love: When virtual sex gets real (2005)

Watching the Detectives: How to honeytrap a cheater in the Metaverse (2005)

The Freeform Identity of Eboni Khan: First-hand account of the Black user experience in virtual worlds (2005)

Man on Man and Woman on Woman: Just another gender-bending avatar love story, with a twist (2005)

The Nine Souls of Wilde Cunningham: A collective of severely disabled people share the same avatar (2004)

Falling for Eddie: Two shy artists divided by an ocean literally create a new life for each other (2004)

War of the Jessie Wall: Battle over virtual borders -- and real war in Iraq (2003)

Home for the Homeless: Creating a virtual mansion despite the most challenging circumstances (2003)

Newstex_Author_Badge-Color 240px
JuicyBomb_NWN5 SL blog
Ava Delaney SL Blog
my site ... ... ...