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Friday, June 27, 2014

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Joe

Of course Ebbe "The Skipper" Eggbert doesn't know what he is talking about.

How can someone with ZERO experience with VWs, VR or games possibly lead a crew of skilled engineers to create a "better" VR world?

Alicia Chenaux

Why would we want our old things in a new world? When (or if) this new world happens, I want lots and lots of new, better, more amazing stuff.

Ciaran Laval

Alicia I very much like your way of thinking, out with the old and in with the new.

Old SL content, even that could be feasibly exported may not be optimised for the new world and would look clunky anyway. We'll have to see.

Gwyneth Llewelyn

Ciaran is so right. In my own assumptions I thought only about the technical hurdle of doing the migration. I forgot all about the ToS. Granted, it might be possible to change the ToS now and force everybody to sign it, but will that be a good move?

Dang. There goes one of the best arguments that LL had to avoid everybody switching over to HiFi and Facebook when SL goes down: a clear migration plan.

Time for Plan B. That's on my blog, at the very end — I might have to highlite it.

Pierre Ceriano

I share the idea of new content in a brand new world. But as creator of full perms contents I decided I will give in SL2 the meshes and textures my customers bought from me in SL1. In the coming days, I will modify the TOU in this regard.

"All full perms meshes and textures will be given to you directly in the coming new virtual world created by the Linden Labs (that I call here SL2). You will have to be the same avatar first and last name in Second Life and in SL2, and you will have to copy paste to me (the creator) a proof of your purchase in SL1 (ingame or MarketPlace). So I recommend you keep any trail of your purchases. In any case I don't grant you the right to upload my stuff directly by yourself, which is forbidden by the Linden Labs TOS anyway."

I guess creators and merchants need to modify their personal terms of use so that their customers know what they are dealing with, and in order to reassure them.

Ciaran Laval

@Pierre Ceriano - When OpenSim and worlds like Kitely and Inworldz started to appear, some content creators were happy for their items to be ported over and others were not. This created the same issue with the TOU you highlight, some started explicitly stating content could only be used in Second Life. I don't know if you were around then or not.

The situation with the new Linden Lab world is probably different in view of the fact that Linden Lab run it as opposed to unknown third parties but it is definitely something content creators need to consider.

Issa Heckroth

I saw a great comment in the official SLU forums. I don't know who it originally comes form but it really sums it up for me. I will attempt to paraphrase....

"People asking for transfer of inventory to the new world are analogous to people who upon hearing of the invention of the automobile, ask if it will come with a cart and reigns, like your used to".

As Penny Patton always goes at great pains to point out, many of Second Lifes problems are exacerbated if not caused by poorly made content. Even newer mesh stuff.

At minimum, system prims, sculpties, LSL and Animations are as dead as the Dodo at this point.

Rose Mackie

So not wanting to spend any money in SL now. Or waste time creating content.

Shug Maitland

How soon we forget:
"...you hereby grant to Linden Lab, and you agree to grant to Linden Lab, the non-exclusive, unrestricted, unconditional, unlimited, worldwide, irrevocable, perpetual, and cost-free right and license to use, copy, record, distribute, reproduce, disclose, sell, re-sell, sublicense (through multiple levels), modify, display, publicly perform, transmit, publish, broadcast, translate, make derivative works of, and otherwise exploit in any manner whatsoever, all or any portion of your User Content (and derivative works thereof), for any purpose whatsoever in all formats, on or through any media, software, formula, or medium now known or hereafter developed, and with any technology or devices now known or hereafter developed, and to advertise, market, and promote the same."

Amanda Dallin

Could LL have made the changes they did to the TOS because of this problem? They seemed to be trying to have a uniform TOS for all their products. Possibly they were trying to setup the legal ability to tie content to the account and not just the avatar in SL. This way they can use it in the new world as well as in the old SL This would be contingent on technically feasibility of the transfer. This is just a late night WAG but would explain LL's inexplicable TOS changes.

Tesla Miles

These are things that would definitely break in the new virtual world SL 2.0, so these can be eliminated from your migratory wishlist...

1) Anything rigged like mesh clothing will break and be unwearable in SL 2.0.

2) Furniture like chairs would break, the sit position would not work with the new avatar bone layout.

3) Anything scripted would break, unless LSL is still supported, which is highly unlikely.

4) Skins, or old SL clothing will break, a new UV layout on a brand new avatar would not be compatible with the old textures.

Having said that, I don't know why anyone would want to bring their old stuff into the new virtual world. My advice... take a photo of it.

Ciaran Laval

@Shug Maitland @Amanda Dallin there is plenty of content in Second Life that was uploaded before those terms of service changes and there are many content creators who have long stopped logging in and never agreed to those terms, it simply would not fly.

Linden Lab are better off staying out of this, it would be a massive can of worms.

Shuichi Shinji

Oh, all this worrying... Why stop spending money inworld or creating? Why did we start doing this? Because it was meant for eternity? Or because we had fun doing it? Why does that change so suddenly now that a new world is announced? Do we live in the here and now or do we worry about the future constantly? Shall we stop living our real lifes at once because we are gong to die eventually anyway? I say: Let us make the best of what we have here and now, with all its flaws and imperfections, let's create and consume and have fun - we can deal with the new world when it comes. Of course we can and should plan for what's to come... but all this worrying is just pointless!

And as for the actual topic: Who knows whether LL declare it just an "update" to SL or indeed another virtual world. I fit were just an update (not technologically, of course, but the way it is perceived from outside), why shouldn't they allow content being taken over? If it's declared as a new virtual world, then the new ToS could come in handy to allow at least transfer of some. Whether it's useful or sensible is another thing.

Yes, I hate the thought of having to do everything again. I have this now with porting my stuff to Avination and it's a lot of work which isn't very creative for most of it... just copying all over, uploading and assembling everything again etc. Some things I won't port and I certainly won't take over everything into the new world.

Sometimes we just have to move on and let go of the old and loved things and start anew - just as with moving to somewhere else in the real world. We still have the good memories of the things we had and loved. We did experience all that and we won't lose those memories. Cherish that and move on, create new things and new memories and have fun doing it!

This big is called New World Notes - so why are we afraid of it now? ^^

So, enough preaching - let's go and enjoy what we have now :-p

RULosingHair

I will switch to using Linux under VirtualBox.

This enables using SteamOS and SteamBox and cinema-class Garry's Mod 13 (GMod costs only one-time 20 Euros, AND no monthly tiers, because Steam provides a free dedicated server).

More Value-Add > Besides there are more 2014+ opportunities available by taking the Linux path, like 3D holographic presentations and 3D printing.

How to Reduce Total-Cost-of-Ownership in #VirtualWorlds AND How to Embrace 2014+ ROI Opportunities http://ht.ly/yqsK0

Immersive Worlds & Linux
https://www.facebook.com/groups/immersiveworlds.linux/

Riesstu

@Joe: does Ebbe *have* to know how to build a VR? No. That's what his engineers are for. Does the chairman of British Airways have to know how to fly a plane? No. He has pilots for that. Bill Gates eventually stopped coding as Microsoft grew...you get the picture.

Regarding the new SL and content creation, I wouldn't expect all the old stuff in SL1 to find it's way there. The LP gave way to the casette tape; both gave way to CDs. VHS yielded to DVD and Blu-Ray. Wet-chemistry film has been largely superseded by digital photography.

Progress is as inevitable as night following day.

Riesstu

*its...slight grammar failure. :)

Ciaran Laval

@Shuichi Shinji Linden Lab have stated that it's a new world, Second Life will still be running as well so it's definitely not an update.

Gwyneth Llewelyn

@Pierre Ceriano I think that's the right attitude; what I call "Plan B". If LL even embraces that and arranges a form of compensating content creators wishing to do exactly what you're doing — exchanging 'old' SL content with 'new' SL2 content for free — and this is loudly announced and proclaimed, then I think that SL2 has more than a fair chance to survive.

In any case, thanks for already doing that promise today! I hope it encourages others to do the same.

@Ciaran Laval — will it really still be running?... And for how long?

Shuichi Shinji

@Ciaran Laval: Yes, I know that it's an additional world, but it's still LL's and their server and database infrastructure. I'm no lawyer, but maybe it doesn't matter much on what servers it's running or what exact database it uses... the fact alone that they want to allow us our identity there makes them connected. Don't call it an update then, but maybe a branch. I *think* if they wanted to take over everything, they could - as long as it isn't declared as something completely unrelated. But we'll see what time brings - at the moment it's all just speculation ^^

RULosingHair

I see no point in doling out the money to Linden Lab.

LL only wants to Cash Cow the SL1.0 situation with SL1.0 Die-Hards, and switch over to SL2.0.

LL wants to continue their predatory ways on SL2.0, since the TOS trick backfired on SL1.0.


A.J.

These conversations on what to keep and what to throw away are interesting. It's like a stage of grief and it's all beyond our control.

Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, and Acceptance.

I'd say we're "Bargaining" right now.

Next comes "Depression" when we realize we can't bargain. We will have plenty of time to say goodbye to our old things because there will undoubtedly be less new things to distract us.

Zoloft, anyone?

Ciaran Laval

@Shuichi Shinji They could take everything over, but they would be opening one hell of a can of worms that it's really not in their best interests to do so. Ebbe has said more than once that they won't make a content grab in relation to the TOS changes, this would be a content grab.

Whereas LL have said they will try and help people take their identities across, they have also reportedly said they won't be taking brands across, users will have to do that themselves.

@Gwyneth Llewelyn Yes it will still be running, LL have said they will still be investing in Second Life, indeed Ebbe has made the bold claim of saying they're going to fix group chat, I doubt they'd be doing that if they thought SL was going away anytime soon.

cathartes aura

Some folks like to divert attention away from the real reasons why SL is where it is today. It's not the viewer or marketplace probs or TOS or Inventory transfers to SL 2.0...

It's all about the insider deals - Atlas Land Program (reduced or free tier to insiders while the rest of us 99%'rs pay full price. Its the corruption between LL, the Land Barons, and the top content creators. that is the main problem with SL and whatever comes after...

No one in their right mind will invest in, create content for, or run in-world businesses in SL 2.0 with that kind of corrupt BS going on. It's that simple...

Contessa lacombe

@cathartes aura--This may be a very good point. It is noticeable that when big changes in content creation occur, some designers seem to be ready and waiting with products made in the new fashion. This may be because they just have a better knowledge base to begin with and perhaps more time to devote. Or perhaps you are correct and there are some "chosen ones" who get info ahead of the rest of us. I have already been thinking it would be very good of LL to give a clue as to what we need to learn so we can get started and be ready to open shop in SL 2.0. Maybe I just don't know what to read to keep informed?? Any recommendations out there? Or should I just relax and get used to being in the "99% Club"?

joe

@Riesstu

Fortunately LL and Ebbe don't run British Airways otherwise there would be a plane crash every day.

Your comparison between leading a VW world and a company in a long established industry is amateurish at best.

However, airline companies do fold because of incompetent management and not because of bad engineers.

So try and think more clearly before you post next time.

RULosingHair

Linden Lab management and development is blessed with these un-quality themes, well-known in quality management circles:

Capability Immaturity Model
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability_Immaturity_Model

Anti-Pattern
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-pattern

RULosingHair

Henry Jenkins, communications professor at MIT, talks heavily about the 'Black Box Fallacy' and how convergence effects older media. For example Jenkins talks about how 'Cinema did not kill Theatre or TV did not kill radio' but rather each medium was 'Forced to coexist with one another'. Henry also talks about how old media is not being displaced, but it's status has shifted by the introduction of new technologies. The black box fallacy argument is that all media content will eventually flow through one 'black box'. The reason why the term was coined is because we see more and more black boxes around our homes and work places (VCR, DVD and CD players), but these boxes over the years have started to converge and have multiple uses http://convergence-culture.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Box_Fallacy

cathartes aura

@Contessa - The issue isn't what you read/study to avoid being one of the 99%. The question is why did LL rig the economic system of SL to only benefit the top 1% of Land Owners(Land Barons), and Content Creators.

Instead of an ever expanding virtual world with opportunity for everyone it became a world with a gamed economy. I understand why it was done. For the first time anyone could create really nice content for a "game". And the "professional" content creators did not like that at all. they want all revenue flowing to them not to some upstarts...

If LL "games" SL 2.0 like they did SL 1.0 it's doomed from the start.

Amanda Dallin

The Atlas Land Program was a quantity discount. That is a normal practice in most businesses. It might be bad public relations but it's not corruption.

cathartes aura

@ Amanda - A waived or reduced setup fee is a normal discount. A permanent, minimum 33.3%+ business advantage over your competitors due to a policy by LL isn't a discount. It's a corrupt business practice that benefits the 1% few at the expense of the 99%.

In an uncorrupted economic system, everyone pays the same tax rate on real estate. Folks know that they will be on the same level playing field as everyone else. They invest, start up businesses, and contribute to an ever expanding economy.

In LL bizarro world they believe that they can rig the economy and continue to get large numbers of new residents to come in and spend money. If this kind of corrupted business model worked, SL should be booming in its 10th year of existence. It's not and hasn't been since they instituted grandfathered tier, reduced tier, and free tier for certain 1%'rs.

If LL tries the same BS with SL 2.0 it's a goner from the get go. ;)

Ciaran Laval

I don't know the details of the Atlas deal but the lack of transparency over it has long been a concern and rightly so.

RULosing Hair

Why fuss around with what 2.0 platforms are trying to catch-up on, when 3.0 platforms already exist for benchmarking - and offer these open Terms of Service...

Garry's Mod 13 Terms of Service http://www.garrysmod.com/terms/

Snacky

@Tesla Remind me to never buy stuff from you in SL 1.0 or 2.0, if I decide to join. Your lack of empathy for your customers' pain is pretty astounding. People spent a lot of money buying stuff and their shock that it's all going down the toilet is understandable. But you just treat it as a new business opportunity....

But I digress. I've been reading the responses to this news in the blogosphere and as much as I hate and it pains me to say it, I have to agree, with Prok, on her main point. How LL is going to handle small-medium landowners like me is going to be the key issue. If land barons like Anshe already have a special deal or "understanding" with LL, then I'm taking what I spend on my monthly tier, and instead of investing it in the new world and paying LL's bills directly, I'll buy me a new shiny car or boat, maybe a ... Tesla. My suspicion is that the corruption hasn't changed and if there is land to be bought, Anshe et al., will have special deals. I'm not going to get played again.

Tesla Miles

LOL - Umm, because it IS a new business opportunity?... Which part don't you get?

(Why am I even replying to that retarded comment.)

Riesstu

Joe, this one's for you:

http://www.xkcd.com/1386/

Archangel Mortenwold

Is it really that hard to transfer data from one set of servers to another, and keep the permissions? I'm confused.

nicole

there are other more impressive looking virtual worlds out there such as blue mars, but people aren't abandoning second life to flock to them. why would this new world be any different, simply because linden lab made it? second lifers will only leave second life if it dies.

Hitomi Tiponi

@nicole - I take it you haven't visited Blue Mars in the last few years.

Tesla Miles

LOL @ Blue Mars.

RULosingHair

The True Benchmark for 2.0 is a 3.0 platform

Why wait Content Creators? High-fidelity and cinema-class Garry's Mod 13 already exists as 3.0 mashup at Steam http://store.steampowered.com/about/?l=english for rock-bottom one-time 20 Euros plus no monthly tiers (meaning, no additional vendor or utility provider is asking for monthly or time-based fees) - a community of 5 million users also exists
http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2014/04/garrys-mod-5-million-users.html

2014

I'm not even sure why this is a issue/article right now. This equates to a tech nerd talking about the iPhone 20, it's a LOOOONG way before we start worrying about it.

Out with the old, IF/when the switch happens! The oldbies will have to update, no more system clothes, no more full bright 2004 palm trees cluttering mainland, no more gawd awful 900 prim vampire castles. You noticed the big IF above?

Vivienne Daguerre

When I create and put an item on the marketplace, my intention is to market it for Second Life. I do not charge every customer the full value of the item, based on my skill and time. Instead I consider reasonable prices in SL, how much in demand I think the product will be, and how many copies of it I expect to sell. That way the true cost of the item is divided across my customers and not born by any one of them. I base these calculations with the intention that they are for use only in SL. If I wanted them in other places, I would market them there. I do not, because I do not trust all other grids to look after my IP rights equally.

If I had thought that I would be expected to make modifications to my product and take the time to import them to other worlds and grids, and then give them to old customers for nothing, then I would have charged a LOT more for them in the first place.

I may sell similar or the same content on the new grid. I give away a lot of my older content as freebies in SL, and freely share a lot of scripts I have made. I will continue to share some freebies in the new world.

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