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Tuesday, January 13, 2015

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Cube Republic

I'm a little confused as to what you mean by "A avatar of yourself could run by itself while you’re walking to work."

What would be the point to this. An avatar is a pixelated representation of an entity used to navigate a game. Why would there be a need for it to exercise while one walked to work. If you mean it could somehow have some kind of consciousness then I'm doubtful if this is possible. As far as I'm aware consciousness is dependent upon our minds. I'm sure scientists will find out exactly where it resides in the brain and could possibly upload it to a computer. It could even be an evolutionary step. But it seems to be the realm of science fiction to me at least. I don't think anyone is important enough to be preserved forever in some matrix of servers. It sounds like hell to me.

Daren

cant wait for the day a quality vr headset would be sold in a reasonably priced! great read, thanks ;)

Iggy

We'll see. Even if we get the technology to work, Millennials are so addicted to augmentation that I doubt they will go for that level of immersion. It would be "creepy."

Maybe post-Ms, geezers, and geeks will embrace it. I doubt, in any case, that we'll see such immersion in my remaining 3 decades. Basically, it's the flying car / Mars Colony of the 2010s: always 10 years in our futures.

www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=525887873

@Cube Republic: I believe the concept here is being able to have an rudimentary AI representing yourself in your personal avatar, to do basic tasks as your own person goes about its daily business. Much like a personal; assistant. I could be wrong.

Cube Republic

OK, so what tasks would our personal digital assistant do?

Mialee

I agree with previous poster, you could have "yourself" do mundane tasks in lets say an rpg while you work and then takeover when you are home.

The whole thing questions the line of self. If you created an exact copy of yourself down to the last thought where is the consciousness ? Is that you or this you ?

Cube Republic

It wouldn't be an exact copy if it was in an RPG. You're made from flesh and bone, not pixels. The concept of 'I' comes from you being alive. If really smart people did make artificial intelligence, why would it then be given mundane tasks to do while you were at work? There's a high probability that if AI were advanced enough to do work, then you would be out of a job.

Arcadia Codesmith

We're all going to be out of a job soon enough. The advance of robotics and automation is inexorable and irreversible. What do we do with billions of laborers when labor is obsolete?

Of the answers available to us, allowing them to be happy in a world made up of anything they can dream of may be the most humane (and human) option.

melponeme_k

@Arcadia

Come back to reality. History already has shown us what the elites do with the surplus population.

War (all of them)
Forced Famine (Ireland, Ukraine)

Of course these elements paired with natural disasters could always backfire on them and lead to revolutions. But, unfortunately, due to the web, VR, twitter etc., it hasn't expanded us, it has made us intellectual midgets. We are smaller people, only concerned with selfies and things.

The elites are certainly NOT going to create a happy, happy world for excess eaters to dream about in. That world will be their's as well.

Ajax Manatiso

Yes, but where are the flying cars?

Mialee

Cube Republic: We can simulate all sorts of things in a computer including neural networks of extremely small capacity. BUT there is no limit to it and if in the future we scan your brain into a computer simulation where it simulates your brain in all its detail then what is that ? Is it you ?

shirc desantis

Upload? to what exactly... If direct simulation will be enough to blur real/non-real/insert term then cut out the dull bits - make it fully two/multi way and you already have a massive billions strong extreme distributed parallel processing - thingie with built in spare capacity for any 'infrastructure' and redundancy. I'd join :)
Perhaps I just liked the Resuna/OneTrue idea.

Cube Republic

Yeah perhaps we can simulate small neural networks. However the minute that's expanded into a full conscious 'being' will possibly be the end of us all. How would an advanced AI with massive amount of intellect view a bunch of violent great apes? Perhaps it would see us as a threat and destroy us all?

On a side note this reminds me of a few films etc folk here may be interested to view:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0267287/

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1971325/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19o-sh9KWAk

not really about AI but geek worthy and awesome!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2910814/?ref_=tt_rec_tt

Kim Anubis

Virtual worlds are nifty and useful. I sell the tech all the time myself. But they aren't as wide as the real universe, which still contains mysteries we don't understand and therefore cannot recreate, as well as new things to discover. Programmed Easter eggs don't count. I wouldn't condemn a copy of myself or anyone to llive like that.

Beyond that, I am not convinced that all we are lives in the brain. Leaving aside the question of consciousness, the spirit or soul ... we know, for example, that circadian rhythms are controlled by all the cells in the body, not just the workings of the brain. We know that behavior is affected by the microbiome in a human gut! But we still don't understand these things, and many others, about what makes us think, feel, and do what we do. What kind of creature would you create by only recording the electrical habits of a brain? Perhaps one day we will find out, but I suspect whatever it is will be less than human.

We already have the tech to make bots/NPCs go through the motions of running errands -- with the support built into OpenSimulator, peolle are already doing that. But in the context here, so what? The actual errand -- ordering the groceries, paying a bill -- can already be automated and scheduled. What's the avatar got to do with it? Do you think in the future, when we have all this great tech, we will still be wedded to the image of ourselves driving to, parking at, and schlepping around a shopping mall?

Who's going to control this technology? Would you want to be tracked and monetized and controlled by corporations every moment of your existence? Would you want to live your entire life under corporate Terms of Service?

I love VR, and it has great uses and potential uses for education, medicine, business and all sorts of things. But I'm with Iggy on this one ... Uploading yourself this way is a cool-sounding but functionally impractical flying car.

melponeme_k

There will never be a computing neural network to compete with the human brain. You will never be uploaded bit for bit into a computer to "live" forever.

Everyone needs to get their heads out of the dementia zone and into reality.

Reality

Tech companies do not use American engineers. They use visa people. Will these visa people stay in the US? Most likely they will go back to their own countries with greater opportunities...namely China.

The future of computing will be in China. Their interests will dictate how computers interact with other humans beings.

And I've yet to see them being interested in developing sentient AI with independent personalities. This is a culture that still stresses family names over first names for pete's sake. It is the Japanese who are interested in AI. But their day is done both financially and environmentally (the country is being polluted for next 100s of years by Fukushima).

If we want truly useful technology we have to figure out how to make it affordable and compliment people not rule people or absorb them. This fascination with being a cog in the great computer in the sky is really just another form of death wish. Please come back to the living all of you...we need you here.

Kim Anubis

As a longtime SL user, I'm still trying to get my head around the reference to some sort of unlimited, valueless gold pieces and no worries about IP rights.

Mialee

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20130207-will-we-ever-simulate-the-brain

Kim Anubis

A picture of a chair isn't a chair. Neither is a simulation of one.

irihapeti

@kim

i think is a analogy to the Star Trek replicator

if we can obtain a new pair of shoes any time we want as many times as we want. Then how many pairs of shoes will you eventually have in your closet?

the logical outcome over the long time is none. Is no transferable value in the ownership of shoes

+

a similarish analogy

a guy finds a bottle. He rubs it and out pops a genie. Genie goes you get 2 wishes

guy goes: waahh! i thought you get 3. Genie goes nah! 2

guy goes: ok I have a bottle of beer that never empties ever. Genie goes: ok and voila
guy goes: chuur!! much
genie goes: you get another wish
guy goes: dont worry about. im good
genie goes: but I insist
guy goes: ok be like that. I have another bottle please

Kim Anubis

We can already create infinite copies of a virtual pair of shoes, but designers still sell each one for money. Even when materials don't cost anything, originality and a designer's labor will continue to have value.

irihapeti

the assumption the article writer makes is that a virtual being can know all known things. Which include how to make all known stuff

in such a environ then only that which is original in concept and design has value. bc nobody has to labour to make stuff

so agree with your point about originality having some value

+

a question that sometimes comes up in chat is: how much genuinely original stuff is produced in SL ?

quite often we equate original with handmade that somebody has laboured over. Is not much true this equation when look at it from original concept design pov

irihapeti

the assumption the article writer makes is that a virtual being can know all known things. Which include how to make all known stuff

in such a environ then only that which is original in concept and design has value. bc nobody has to labour to make stuff

so agree with your point about originality having some value

+

a question that sometimes comes up in chat is: how much genuinely original stuff is produced in SL ?

quite often we equate original with handmade that somebody has laboured over. Is not much true this equation when look at it from original concept design pov

Kim Anubis

Of course someone has to labor to make stuff, even in a virtual space. Thinking up something original, which is usually solving a problem, IS labor. I spend many more of my working hours coming to understand a challenge, researching, and designing a solution than I do actually building it. In order for a creation to be expressed in prims or another form, I have to build it at least once -- in my head. Even if creating things were as easy as visualizing them, that just removes a step, and not the hard one. The real work is when I am up in the middle of the night, with the flow charts and the sketch pad, building the thing in my own head, thinking things like, "No, no, gotta rotate that rail like so, and this piece over here needs to be blue instead of red, to keep the UI consistent." Nevermind the revisions during the construction process, the input of other team members, or the testing and resulting revisions ... designing something original IS labor.

It takes labor to create a new design. Ralph Lauren doesn't sew. Frank Lloyd Wright didn't build Fallingwater with his own hammer. We love Mozart for his invention, not because he could use a quill to write musical notes on a page or play instruments himself. Margaret Atwood writes a hell of a book, which has nothing to do with the format in which you read it. All of their creations have been recreated electronically, but they had to be labored over in the minds of creatives first.

In a virtual space where you could have all the mass produced copies you want, what could be more valuable than something original and new? The original will not have some value in a space like that -- it will be of the greatest value.

Kim Anubis

BTW, if artificial intelligence can do everything else but be original, how are folks who aren't creatives going to pay for hosting? I mean, hardware and maintenance and electricity and support -- how would those costs be covered by the uploaded folks?

irihapeti

@kim - is interesting question this

how does a person (who is virtual and doesnt design stuff) pay for their own upkeep?

they sell a fraction of their time to an employer for wages (same like we do in the RL)

a typical employer is someone who needs a whole lot of computing/thinking power to achieve some task/goal which cannot be achieved by the employer by themself in the time available to them. (same like in the RL also)

a task/goal for a virtual employee might be: what are the calculations (and results of same) for a vehicle to travel to the next star system and return

another job might be working as a weather person. Working with zillions of others to plot the path of a hurricane in realtime. What are all the possible outcomes, re damage etc ? What are all the possible remedies, etc ?

+

a more nefarious job might be working on cracking a banks encryption sec so can loot it. That be pretty hard bc be whole bunches of zillions other virtual people simultaneous working to block your zillions of people (:

irihapeti

@kim - is interesting question this

how does a person (who is virtual and doesnt design stuff) pay for their own upkeep?

they sell a fraction of their time to an employer for wages (same like we do in the RL)

a typical employer is someone who needs a whole lot of computing/thinking power to achieve some task/goal which cannot be achieved by the employer by themself in the time available to them. (same like in the RL also)

a task/goal for a virtual employee might be: what are the calculations (and results of same) for a vehicle to travel to the next star system and return

another job might be working as a weather person. Working with zillions of others to plot the path of a hurricane in realtime. What are all the possible outcomes, re damage etc ? What are all the possible remedies, etc ?

+

a more nefarious job might be working on cracking a banks encryption sec so can loot it. That be pretty hard bc be whole bunches of zillions other virtual people simultaneous working to block your zillions of people (:

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