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Thursday, November 12, 2015


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SL is immersive, but it's not VR because the illusion of "elsewhere" is not complete with keyboard and mouse.

If you play SL with an Occulus Rift (yep, play, as I consider it a sandbox game these days, not a world) then it's VR.


If it hasn't occurred to anyone by now, let me say it....Luckey is full of it.

He is a Carny barker with something to sell. And wasn't Second Life the place to be for him when he was shaking hapless kickstarter fans for their money before Microsoft made him a billionaire.

It is within his interest to see Second Life die or to play down its historic, yes HISTORIC, influence on virtual reality/worlds.


Self Correction: Facebook purchased Palmer's device, not Microsoft.


IMO, he's totally right. Sure the people who made SL were VR enthusiasts. But the bulk of the user base? Most uses of SL to me look like a mash up of "The Sims", paper-doll games, and text based multi-user roll playing games. This all can produce a surprising degree of immersion but I would hesitate to call it VR.

But this may also just be a definitional issue too. To me, VR is necessarily fetishistic of new gear right now, because good VR gear is something we're just starting to maybe see.


The majority of most VR users are casual. I've been in one form or another of VR for years, and I still consider myself a casual user. Then you have the other end of the spectrum that is somewhere between hard core and rabid. It's the rabid users that Palmer Luckey is aiming for. Casual users will be content to use Google Cardboard. Even Maria Korolov has stated her preference for a phone device. And I consider her to be somewhere close to an hard core enthusiast.

Adeon Writer

The vast majority are not.

Jessica Pixel

SL users in general are not bleeding edge computer users. They don't have the latest hardware and not even near what you need for a VR headset. And that's okay, they don't need to. Users are content with using keyboard, mouse , and a monitor and they may not even realize there are viewers that work with Occulus Rift.

The average SL user is not interested in VR. They won't check out other platforms like Convrge. They won't even check out OpenSim. You may be able to get people back that are here for VR purposes, but getting people interested in VR who don't care about it won't happen.

Amanda Dallin

SL is VR. The people who want to sell all the new hardware want to redefine VR. SL can be extremely immersive for some people.. so can a good book or paper and dice RP game. Virtual Reality is a reality that is not real and doesn't even need electricity to exist.


At first I didn't understand Palmer's reaction, because I wouldn't know what could serve as a representation of the so called "reality" for any VR device, if not a virtual world, and esp one that simulates real life, like second life.
Now put yourself in Palmer's shoes, finding out that a survey says the majority of the users of such a virtual world isn't so keen with your device, and you understand his reaction.
I believe I am a "hardcore" VR user in SL, at least by the standard, if any, of what a hardcore user could be with the development kit 2 as of 2015, the experience is no less than amazing everytime.
But IMO I think that it is a bit early for Slers to be able to say wether or not they want to buy this device, DK2 wasn't even a consumer version and it isn't even for sale right now because it is out of stock or something so, obviously, nothing left to do but "wait and see" so far, and once it is out for good I have no doubt it will be a majority of ppl that will be very interested.


I am a hardcore virtual reality enthusiasts. I use the Oculus almost everyday in SL. When you have started to experience SL in VR there is no going back. Its amazing to see this world as it deserves. All great builds and LEA projects.

When people start using VR in SL it will all change.

Carlos Loff

Since long time people spend hours and hours on Virtual Worlds but NO ONE will spend more that 30 or 40 continuous minutes using head gear

Shockwave Yareach

We put up with ten year old bugs, a company that can't stick to any agreement and who run the grid like a crack smoking chimp with ADHD. The only indignity we haven't endured here is having to pee in a bottle.

If there is any way to be more hard core than us, I'd like to hear it.


maybe Mr Luckey is actual meaning the millions and millions of users

not SL users or Minecraft users or Whichever users. Them other ones. the Millions and Millions users

Estelle Pienaar

Luckey is right and most comments here that people have no clue about VR gear and confuse things. Unfortunately you are also confusing things, Hamlet. The only thing you base your hole argumentation on is the word virtual. That's a bit thin. What is VR? VR is a technology that simulates a virtual space in a way that people perceive it as real as reality. It's tricking our senses. VW are virtual spaces that we are used to look into from the outside, through a window. This way of experiencing VW puts a distance between us and our avatars. And that seems to be the way that SL users want it to be. We already had this discussion with the camera angle. While games drag you into their stories by a shoulder view, SLers keep their distance by a bird view. It's possible to change the camera angle and experience the world from a more "realistic" angle, but almost no one does that. Not even you, Hamlet. You prefer the puppet house distance to a more realistic experience. This shows that SLers don't want to perceive their SL as a "reality". If you look at the available VR applications, you will see that a film, a game, a 3d room can be a virtual space. And they can be perceived as real. Virtual worlds is not at all a product that they are going for. Luckey is right and anyone who knows both, VR and VW well, should be aware. But obviously there are not many people who know both "worlds" well enough.



Camera distance and various media formats have no impact on what the human brain is perceiving. Your brain, my brain and everyone else will see TV, Film, Second Life, WOW, Minecraft etc as reality. It doesn't differentiate. It doesn't differentiate by setting camera distance in third person, nor will it when it is in first person.

People have to come to terms with this fact. By adding all these wrongful segmentations it is actively stopping awakening, development and study of psychological responses to virtual reality. The business is denigrating Second Life users now because it wants to minimize its groundbreaking, flag waving iteration of VR. Why? Because the tech world wants everyone to wear goggles.

Lets be realistic here. If the core, key demographic of VR (Second Life users) don't want to wear goggles, that indicates DOOM for the sellers of goggles. Instead of facing this REAL reality, the tech world just turns around and says, like school yard 5 year olds....well SL users aren't really true VR people.


I had to reread Estelle's comment a couple of times and I kind of agree.

But I don't think that SLers behave all that differently from how the general public will behave.

When people are given the opportunity, they're more interested in themselves than anything else. So much of what people "share" is a giant selfie looking for an audience. If the idea of virtual reality is to get lost in the scene, I believe the general public will get bored very quickly and go back to looking for their idealized self-image.

Right now, even VR enthusiasts... look at me, I'm so smart, cutting edge, an enlightened visionary... and you're not.



Sl users are already behaving differently. They have embraced VR and use it as an extension for new/different life experiences. The very fact that they are in VR makes them different.

The visionary thumb sucking is only a small segment of SL. Most people in SL are just living life, talking to friends, decorating a "house" and having fun. There is nothing magical or groundbreaking about SL to this large group, in fact they find VR quite quotidian and sometimes boring. Just like regular life. And the people who aren't into VR? Actually THEY are the ones virtualizing their lives by lying on social media about all the "excitement" they experience and claiming they have a "lifestyle". Most people in SL that I know would just laugh at that.

I'm not saying goggles won't have a use. I think they will. But only in fun parks and arcades. I don't see regular folks vegging out with goggles on in their homes.

Pussycat Catnap

SL may have been created by VR enthusiasts, but it is not a VR.

Its an MMO of the 'extreme sandbox' variety.

The kinds of people who are attracted to SL are in many ways similar to those attracted to a Mincraft or a World of Warcraft. Not exactly of course - SL is not an ideal action-gaming platform even when it has action game systems. But the sense of a community and a giant sandbox to make things with is there.

I think Palmer is basically right... we're NOT what he and his industry defines as a "VR Enthusiast"...

BUT I think it is also fair to say that he is searching for a customer that does not really exist...

You cannot base this entire VR industry off of the idea of selling products only to its own developers...

This is a moment where I see SL's user as the user Bill Gates and Steve Jobs were trying to sell to... and these VR guys are like IBM - selling to themselves and to industry.

Only this time the timline is reversed, but only by accident. SL did after all - launch as a platform for those VR Engineers... but they never got far with it, it wasn't ready for them... and the rest of us swamped into the place when the hype took hold (or after).

LLs has NEVER liked its own customers... and this quote from Palmer is basically why... They don't see us as VR People... we are not the customers they wanted.

The customers they wanted... don't actually exist in significant numbers.

High Fidelity and VRs like it won't replace SL...

SL will die when something just like it, but better, comes along.

All those VRs will just end after companies realize the sham... but pieces of the tech will survive way into the future in things like smaller samples of augmented reality... probably using simple tools like phone apps that trigger items within bluetooth range to pop up holograms...


The question of "reality" in Virtuality is nothing new, the debate has been going on since way before we had any headsets available. They want to trademark this aspect of reality? Fine, I have more problems with monsanto wanting to trademark my tomato seeds. But making comments that end up dividing the users of various technologies that all use virtuality as a new material should be made with a lot more caution and maturity because blindly splitting things in half can be as destructive as it can be constructive.

sirhc deSantis

Luckey is correct, from the point of view that as an SLer (or whatever its referred to when I don't just use SL) I have little interest in strapping on anything that constricts me - when I am logged in its usually to actually do something, ie mouse and keyboard and external tools. I can see myself just vegging out on the sofa once and being 'entertained' but only out of curiosity. Not something I would seek out. Almost as bad as TV.

And eventually 'millions' will probably do just that - but the tech is going to have to be a hell of a lot better. So he is just going to have to scrabble to keep the hype fuelled. Someone will eventually invent the kit - just not been done as yet.


about 3PV (3rd person view) the default for SL

1PV (1st person view, mouselook and overshoulder) simulates the RL view of the player/participant. In this view we see and play/participate in the VW as we do in the RL. And as we do in most 3D games. Altho some games are 2.5V, 2D games with a birdseye perspective

3PV is a builders view. It gives us a birdseye view of what it is that we are building. Similar to a CAD program. When building the camera focus is easier to manipulate in 3PV. Even if we were able to build in 1PV then by necessity we would also need be able to zoom and pan the camera. 3PV effectively


SL is a building tool. Well it was. For prims and that. Most people in the beginning of SL were builders. So the default 3PV (or CAD view if we prefer)



3PV also fills a need which we dont often want to acknowledge. In the RL we like looking at ourself in the mirror. Not all the time. But more than we admit to sometimes. 3PV gives us this mirror


sirhc wrote: " I can see myself just vegging out on the sofa ... and being 'entertained' "

I just go off this bit (I am not put words in your mouth. Is the vegging entertainment part which I want to pick up on)

the vegging on the sofa being entertained is what the millions and millions will do

so we are agree on that



there is a RL and a VR. It is a RL concert. TS is performing live on stage. Is also being broadcast VR

i pay my VR concert fee and log in. My avatar is on my VR seat. I get all dressed up. Then TS starts singing. I can stand and dance. Clap, cheer, etc. I can chat IM with my friends as well. So nothing special so far for SL users

the special part for me (the veggie) is I can click on TS and see the auditorium as TS from her 1PV. I am TS, in the moment

next example

I login to PDP Show. I can sit on the wall OOC and watch. I can play in the game with him. I can click on him and be him in the moment

i can click on his opponent and be that opponent in the moment. I am not running the opponent character


i am riding with him or her, 1PV. Riding with the opponent, riding with TS and PDP, IPV. What they see I see. What they do I do. So I imagine


watching someone else play/perform is something that millions and millions of us do. We also sometimes imagine ourself to be that person

like we watch sports, theatrical performances, films, all kinds. By clicking on a player/person in the sport/performance we can be that person for that moment, in the moment

is millions and millions and millions of people do this already. TV, radio, vid, 2D internets, etc. They watch and listen and consider and imagine

veggie VR is a extension of this. For them

for us SLers and gamers and musos and actors, etc etc in our thousands and thousands, then we mostly make and do our own thing (both real and self imagined)

for the millions and millions tho then they will mostly veg out on the sofa, being someone/something else, in the moment

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