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Monday, December 07, 2015


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Issa Heckroth

I agree with the notion of uniformity. You buy a "professional" piece of content fro the MP these days and rez it and suddenly everything else in your parcel looks like crud next to it. But I suspect that is also a large factor in keeping the economic wheels turning.

I laugh at the idea that second life ever was "hyper-realistic". lol.

Eleri Ethaniel

I have to agree- and it is part of why our SL use dropped off profoundly; from daily visits and a half-sim parcel of mainland, to 512 and once or twice a month, if that.

The creative aspect- making clothes, building things, even scripting (Which, lets be frank, LSL is a cludge of a scripting system.) stopped being something you could just *do*, and became a *chore* with a severely steep learning curve.

Even just being in world became an ongoing chorus of 'sculpt shaming'- "You know you really should get some mesh clothes, you look like a n00b." "Why are you still wearing prim hair?" "Wow, your house is still made with sculpts?"

Why would I want to put up with that?

Former NWN Poster

Sir , Hamlet please do more fact findings before presenting articles like this . who ever claimed Apollo was gone was just not on the access list with it being a private sim for years .

linden lab inaccurately 'not saving it ' that bring past hard feelings to the surface.
sensitive topic of the past only brings up opinions that might not shed good light on linden lab.

I will say nothing further as your one finger labeling some posters leaves four fingers pointing back at you.


This is some serious luddite bullshit.

eyes that see

Mesh should have been the real golden age of SL but instead has had the opposite effect.

The reason is because scripters are stealing 3d models off websites or ripping them from games. Since they don't have to invest time in modeling, they price their product down below legitimate artists who put in the elbow grease making models from scratch and then have to collaborate with other scripters who force them to go 50-50 on the product leaving the artist no choice but to give their creations full perms to the scripter in hopes the scritper won't screw them.

The best thing the Lab can do to help combat this is to get it right in Sansar by creating UIs where everyone can program visually - sort of like using nodes. They also need to set up, maintain and continually improve common applications such as vehicles systems and combat physics that's accessible to all.

When the shackles that chain artists 100% to scripters are finally broken, then you'll see the golden age of building return again (but probably not to SL).

zz bottom

From being one of the last to use a mesh viewer i moved to learn blender, Daz and start doing my own mesh models, animations and scripts.
And all looks much better, if all respected the golden rules of building for Sl.
Make items mod by rezzing them in world, don't use to high rez textures when not needed, make sure your builds can be seen at a low lod factor.
A very good article about why the above is true:
And about the myth of Mesh creators ripping off models, a pretty neat site that explains which models you can use without any risk of being called a ripper:
Btw, a former Well known and amazing Sl builder, now on His own hypergrid connected grid!
The golden age of Second Life was not the pre sculpted one, it is the one when all shared their common knowledge and the builds they made without only thinking of profit from them!

daniel polland

#watch full Krampus (I) (2015) @ http://tinyurl.com/tms12/tt3850590

#watch full The Hunger Games: Mockingjay - Part 2 (2015) @ http://tinyurl.com/tms12/tt1951266

#watch full The Good Dinosaur (2015) @ http://tinyurl.com/tms12/tt1979388

#watch full Creed (2015) @ http://tinyurl.com/tms12/tt3076658

#watch full Spectre (2015) @ http://tinyurl.com/tms12/tt2379713


Mesh looks pretty, but it's not for amateur builders. So much for educators, but we were dunces to think SL was ever really for us, anyhow. We don't have the incentives and rewards, outside of design faculty, to learn pro tools for today's builds.

If I were still in SL with a class, I'd say we all get blocky-robot avatars and build with prims. Or just go to Minecraft.

Han Held

I agree with Iggy's sentiment. I think that's the dividing line between the old SL (and OpenSIM) and modern SL/Sansar.

The old tools gave everyone an equal footing and were much more approachable (apparently not as approachable as minecraft -which is why they have the numbers). The wonderful thing about our platform was that you could enter it cold and use it as a springboard to learn or find your way into other forms of creation.

At this point it's fair to say that there is no room in SL for the amateur builder (and no chance in hell in Sansar) who has no previous experience.

This reflects a change in sentiment and values in the real world. In the real world we are going from placing value in democratic forms of creation (eg garage bands) to valuing pre-packaged forms of entertainment, and creation is becoming something that ordinary people are discouraged from pursuing in any serious way.

It's a sad development, but the switch from prim-based creation by a large number of people to mesh creation by an elite few is just a reflection of how the values of our larger society are changing.

For my part, I intend on applying to be in SL12B, and if accepted my build will be prim-based; just as it was in SL11B.

Han Held

Heh, I meant "applying to be in SL13B, and if ... just as it was in SL12B". Yikes I can't believe how fast time has flown!

Clara Seller

Sansar is going to have to return the control that SL has slowly taken away from it's amateur user. I was a little disturbed by the message that "content creators are king". If that's the case, I think it will be a series of pretty quiet kingdoms.

The success of Facebook and WordPress isn't because people go there to adore the creations of trained professionals. People go there to dream of being unique and more than they are. Sansar is going to have to make "me" king.

I'll gladly pay content creators and use their components and recipes, but I want to be the cook. I don't want to be a clone and drone at the mercy of content creators egos and market manipulation.

In the end, it's the people who put more money in than they take out that makes the world go 'round. It's about the consumer, not the merchant.

I hope LL is prepared to govern their new world and equip it better than SL.

Han Held

Iggy is right; building is no longer for everyone, and that's a shame.

Vivienne Schell

Exactly my thoughts. I´d go even further and predict any kind of UGC environment which demands nore than basical knowledge on GIMP for content creation death on arrival.

Truly user generated content, as described in the article, was and still is THE major attraction, not the downfall of something like Second Life. Unfortunately Linden Lab spoiled that experience and never made any attempt to move beyond the 2006 creation toolset.

And I predict Sansar death on arrival if Linden Lab is not able or willing to give users all the tools they may need for creating their very own environment in-world. WIthout being forced to upload or even ay for models and whatever. They actually have a chance there, by providing more advanced and better designed toolsets now, but i doubt that they will take this chance. And if they don´t take it Sansar entirely will become just another uselss, pointless, pre-manufactured, soulless, lifeless 3D object sightseeing tour. Just another niche within a niche, not worth the investment and not worth risking the existance of Second Life.

My two cents.

Get it Together

The problem is that builders and content creators of old are perfectly fine with being mediocre and sticking to the old ways. Mesh came along and the market moved in that direction. I used to be one of those people. I forced myself to learn how to build mesh in blender. It was a headache and it took a very long time but it paid off.

I run a very successful shoe template business now and it's because I decided that I should learn how to do other things instead of sticking with the old.

I for one welcome Sansar and its new possibilities. We must keep going forward and not holding on to this romanticized notion of what used to be in the old SL. Those days are gone. Let go of the mediocrity, learn some new skills and move forward. Embrace change. It is the only constant in life.

Eddi Haskell

Like anything, if you need to spend a great deal of time to learn how to do it, the odds of dropping out go up with the amount of time it takes to master anything.

This holds true for learning Chinese, learning how to cook classic French cuisine by making your own stocks with fresh herbs, doing complex ski jumps, and yes, learning how to make things in Second Life.

I have often said that the main problem of growing Second Life usership is mastering the complexity of the viewer. I have been in Second Life for almost 9 years, work in IT as a consultant, and STILL cannot figure out about 40% of what you need to do to call yourself a master Second Life user. It is far more complex that learning how to lay out pages in Quark or learning how to master Photoshop. The majority of people I have turned on to Second Life in the past 8 years have given up after two or three sessions because "they do not have time to figure things out".

I used to love prim-based mesh building. I built two gorgeous (well, in my mind) sims that were unique and fun to build -- and then I stopped with sculpties and mesh. Building with prims was instinctive and did not require much instruction -- just a few "how to's" from more experienced friends. I was able to build several cool skyboxes that were prim-based and sold on the old marketplace (they are probably still up there) five years ago. Then I stopped. I simply did not have the time to keep up. Second Life lost quite a bit when people like myself gave up building because we felt that we were way to behind on doing things.

But, graphics are everything. So if Second Life or Sansar or whatever is going to look even better, I am all for it. I will be damned if i am going to sit around with a "headset" for three hours a day to have fun -- what I do still must be screen based.

zz bottom

:) On that i must agree Eddi, give me Sansar's ultra sexy avatars and i dont give a damn if if i can build.

Captain Farrell

@ Eddi

Still the ship of fools sailed on to its destiny .

High Fidelity : Completely Open Source while being 100% Transparent while created to be free and even to create your own business with it ; .
Project Sansar : Big Secret . but admitted by its developer it may cannabis /or destroy Second Life .

High Fidelity : Create your own worlds inexpensively through Html5 that let's creators create experiences even Commercial derivatives of the hosting software : encrypted currency ; encrypted content to fight piracy : ability to use any creation tools you wish or even port tools into the master source code : very few if any restrictions on creation : import your own avatars : 2 market places ready if add the Kitely Marketplace . create not only your own experience but your own grid while being able to hyper grid between worlds : content creation protections for / against the ability to use bitecoin/litecoin or other Crpto currency's .

Project Sansar : Developer has stated complete proprietary but speculated to use Html5 web pages as the grid , closed viewer development ; creation restrictions : speculated to lack any advanced inworld building tools besides voxel terrains . It is speculated by that Sansar takes all the ideas of / about high fidelity packaging them up in a proprietary bundle .

Again the second time around residents will choose to pay for what can be done for free in high fidelity. .open sim 2.0. safe for creators while the software is 100% free

The silhouette of the vessel blazes in the distance to the eye . upon a sitting sun is were they will be found . Lost , cold , Leary and because they did not support the system of the free with it passing on. the only choices now..will be picking the sizes of the chains that bind you.

zz bottom

I can only see a flaw on HF, PR.
But i believe that the ones with him will do the right job.


@Eddi, who claims "graphics are everything." Perhaps for you, but not for many readers here.

For many of us, UGC + in-world building + community were the recipe for SL's secret sauce. I think the early Lindens really got that. Not now.

Graphics are nice, but they do not a virtual world make or even a good game. They are at best a feature that deepens immersion.

I'd love to be able to build swanky mesh creations collaboratively and in-world if the tools were easy enough. No way I'm going to take professional time to teach myself Blender or Maya. I can get as big a monetary raise in the same amount of time for developing a new face-to-face course, and that content can be reused and tweaked many times. Moreover, I retain all my I.P. rights to the content.

I never really trusted the Lab there, since I could not export builds easily (or now at all, as far as I know).

Vivienne Schell

@ Get it together

"Mesh came along and the market moved in that direction."

Right. Not omly that Linden lab lost half of it´s cutomers since they introduced sculpts and mesh, which is quite SOME market movement. At the same time the real market (not the SL microcosmos) moved to Minecraft, which is entirely upload-free and in-world created.

It´s very obvious that off-world formats might attract a certain niche audience, but mainstream audience wants fun by creating things easily and inexpensively and all by themselves, not to pay real money for some stuff which someone else who in his arrogance thinks he´s better than "mediocre", only because he can deal with Blender.

Cat Farmer

@ Get it Together



If they cannot even offer this 5yr of level of tool quality then they are in trouble when Sansar opens.completely alienating half the user-base.

If they can then they might have managed to win back more inactive players while winning new ones.it will be a day of magic and miracles while completely changing LL reputation in a positive light.(holds deep breath)..if they listen while exceeding expectations.

Get it Together


I apologize if I implied that I was 'better', I think you missed my point. I was at a crossroads creatively, I could continue creating the old things that not many wanted anymore or I could learn on my own to make the newer things that are in demand. I chose the latter.

Why? ANYONE can choose to learn and make mesh. The only cost is time and uploading the mesh and textures. But no one is barred from it. You still have to upload things making the older stuff too, so that isn't an issue.

I have since learned other modeling programs, that I paid for myself and spent more of my time to learn, out of a desire to further my own education. Is it easy? No it's not but I love creating! It is worth it for me.

Again, I am not making a zillion dollars but I do make enough to pay my bills and have some extra. That is secondary to the creative outlet but it's high on the list.

The Signal

My impression it to be a very good article. unsure why the reactions? so much fuss?

zz bottom

Iggy, you can export any that shows you as original creator, into your hard disk on dae format, if you use firestorm or in my case, kokua.
So you can do a build just with reg prims and export it as collada.

Vivienne Schell

@ Get it together

Sorry, you miss the point. It´s nice that you paid for and learned all these tools, and that you manage to sell them to a steadily shrinking number of people who use Second Life. This might enjoy you and the shrinking number of people who use Second life, but in the midterm run it will not help anyone, neither you nor anyone else involved.

Ziggy made a lot of very valid points on UGC. She, nor me, did not attack the people who jump on the off-word tool train. It´s just a matter of fact that neither all these advanced off-worls tools nor all these "free 3D websites" (you know what i mean) which anyone can access made SL grow - the opposite happened. In fact, no comparable VR which was based on off-world tools (like Blue Mars, Cloud Party etc. etc. succeeded so far (in a mainstream sense).

While the attraction of a UGC VR based on in-world reativity tools is proven - by Minecraft and the early SL success.

Metacam Oh

I think it's maybe more the shared building experience than whether its "mesh" or "prims" if there was an inworld build function that made meshes and people could work on it together etc. I think the collab and building in world is the key not exactly the format and difficulty.

Issa Heckroth

"Content Creator is King" - But some are more king than others it seems. Even in the professional/semi-professional leagues.

There is a HUUUUUGE stink being kicked up on the SL forums right now about how LL have offered premium ads to a "select" group of merchants.


Surprised you are not covering it Hammy.

Besedka Brim


It's LL's sandbox they can promote whomever they want. It's good to see them promoting some of the better mesh designers anyway and steering people away from utter crap for a change. Good on them I say.

Norman Batesman

@@@ Issa

Looks as if the Feted Inner Core surfaces so slightly reaching the surface to rear an eight headed beast.
LL permitting certain social welfare for select residents as should be expected.
always has been and always will be if you want to see those same people pissed off part2 then wait until its public who got in first as beta in Sansar

Nothing new why even bother to complain someone up stairs has to care first regarding the matter.

Vivienne Schell

Just another example of a company trying to deal with a flood of UGC which isn´t really the kind of UGC this company wants to see.

If the "selection" reflects what kind of UGC Linden Lab would like to see, fine. That´s nothing new, it only manifests the "vision" of a Virtual Reality, particulary Second Life, which Linden Lab promotes since years.

I just find it funny that they focus promotion on pixel Barbie fetishism now.

Duchess Flux

May I just say.... I love mesh. :P

Amanda Dallin

"Project Sansar : Big Secret . but admitted by its developer it may cannabis . . . Second Life"

If LL cannabis's SL then SL should grow like crazy. It'll the Colorado of virtual worlds.

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