Will Linden Lab Ever "Force" Second Life Users Into Sansar?

Gwyneth in an SL utopian community in 2006 (which of course fell into acrimony and DMCA filings)

Interesting comment from metaverse developer Gwyneth Llewelyn, who's been doing ambitious SL projects for over a decade, on the appeal of Sansar versus High Fidelity for the Second Life user community:

I can see both the appeal of an open-source, open-ended platform, as well as one that is a closed garden ran by a company which has been doing exactly that for 14 years; and I can also see the appeal for high-end gamers with their homes furnished with all sort of VR gear, versus the social user who, at best, has a high-end laptop to log in. Both platforms will appeal to each kind of user in very different ways. Personally I think that both platforms will find their niche markets (around the 10-100K users), and there will be a lot of experimenting by the academic community on High Fidelity (because it's free and open-source), but Second Life will still remain a 'first choice' for the casual, social users.

That's why I still think that Linden Lab, at some point, will have no choice but to 'force' people to switch over to Sansar — maybe starting to find clever ways to port content, especially meshed content (which ought to actually be easier to move over) — merely from a business perspective: it might simply be too costly to keep two separate teams on two platforms at the same time, and enhancing SL will become harder and harder every day. They have been saying 'no' for quite a while now, but... for how long will they be able to keep that promise?

Provocative question for conversation this weekend! My own answer would go something like this:

If enough active Second Life users -- say 100,000 -- switch over to paying the $10 monthly Premium subscriber fee, that gives the company a solid revenue base of $12 million a year. That would be more than enough to weather the near-constant bleeding of their private sim revenue, keep SL operational, and still make a tidy profit. (Assuming about 100 employees work directly on Second Life, that's around $10 million just to keep them employed.)

However, to Gwyneth's point, if in 2-3 years not enough SLers have converted into Premium subscribers, and private sim revenue keeps sliding, yes: We should start seeing Linden Lab gently nudging and then more emphatically nudging Second Life users toward Sansar.

Your take?

Comments

[Dr Feelgood]

Force them there to do what? pay to visit an experience? you cannot do half the things you can do in 2ndlife there so why would anyone? can you build in the world? so they force you out leaving with years of inventory,groups,creations,land,friends,time,investment will that be motivation? you lose your virtual identity and name that's incentive?

The only way this article could make sense is if Sansar had no competition for certainty, well sorry to break the news, but someone will make a new 2ndlife BUT BETTER!...Likely a custom fork of High Fidelity with all the right branding,marketing and features users have asked for.
2ndlife just kinda fell together at the right moments in time with the right change in technology and believe it or not the flaws it has is its greatest strength.
Sansar is a regulated per-planned world with little chances users helping invent the platform like happened in 2ndlife..it will not have the feeling of a new country to explore more like being on a movie set..so no people who leave will find another platform or just go offline.

Here is a crazy idea, how about linden lab after launching Sansar decide to start on 2ndlife 2.0 the next generation platform based on Second Life offering as much backwards compatibility in reasonable manner to fix all technical and scaling problems!..wow!!!..MIND BLOWN!

2ndlife 2.0 the thing residents would really want not PG rated Sansar Experiences.
Why not just create the next generation 2ndlife? and run that side by side with Sansar! why the madness of forcing something down the customers throats instead of giving them what they want?

[Clara Seller]

I remember a presidential election where one party was sure that they could "nudge" voters to do what they wanted. Voters and customers sometimes remember who works for who and the best laid plans can blow up in disaster.

No. LL has made it crystal clear that Sansar is not SL and that SL residents were not what they were looking for. So why would anyone think that SL residents who do spend a lot of money are spending it on something they would be willing to give up so easily just because their money is needed elsewhere?

So we're already thinking of ways to "rescue" Sansar when it hasn't launched and we don't really even know what it is. What's wrong with this picture?

[Persephone]

LL cannot force people into paying to play Sansar. They can close up SL if and when it no longer makes a profit for them, but people who still want this kind of platform will go to another that's like it. InWorldz anyone? Watch their user numbers soar when SL closes.

[Betty Tureaud]

Don't forget the OpenSIM and hypergrid many SL'er are building SIM's ther right now.:

OpenSimulator is an open source multi-platform, multi-user 3D application server. It can be used to create a virtual environment (or world) which can be accessed through a variety of clients, on multiple protocols. It also has an optional facility (the Hypergrid) to allow users to visit other OpenSimulator installations across the web from their 'home' OpenSimulator installation. In this way, it is the basis of a nascent distributed Metaverse.

[Jimmy Tarber]

@ Persephone

Inworldz cannot event make a decent forum considering the founder is a educated 'graphics designer' and if SL closes so will most 3rd party viewer support as well. anyone want to know the current state of Inworldz can just look at the comments made in the elf clan forum

@ Betty Tureaud

Was looking for OpenSims main website but could only find osgrid, who are all these developers? were is the roadmap? were is opensim incorporated out of to take large scale donations? .. who is the head of opensim software? JustinCC left a few years back and who replaced him?

What did opensim users do with the expertly written software by the Army donated to the community to fix 90 percent of the tech issues?..that's right they ran those developers off and threw that donation in the trash can because a few self-appointed personalities said so . the Army was the last hope..no more IBM ,SUN MICRO ,Oracle , Nvidia and has not for a long time.. they tried to set it up as a non - profit run by the community but the only people you let speak for you is the drama queens who know nothing but has a solution for everything

NO PILOT, NO COMPASS,NO MAP and so you want to lure others to sail on the ship of fools with you?.. they are better to stay in SL until something better does come along..after 8 years of opensim being around no one is falling for it's the 'next biggest thing' trick this time around.

[Cathartes Aura]

So, the only way to get users to embrace SL2(Sansar) is to force them to use it. LMAO!!!

Man oh man this just keeps getting better and better. LL is having major problems getting SL2(Sansar) out of Beta. The "market" for this product seems to be extremely limited. They have no "in-world" building/creation tools. They have been loud and proud about not wanting most of the existing SL userbase coming over to SL2(Sansar). And they now have lots of competition in VR Development/Virtual Worlds. LL/SL is not the only game in town. And LL put all their "eggs" in this basket? LOL!!! Typical moronic SOP for LL.

And who's directly responsible for this S$%tshow? Mitch "Numnut" Kapor. Good Job, Mitch! Keep up the good work! LMAO!!! ;)

And the Turkey Buzzard goes... Hiss! ;)

[Yourthere Sometimes]

Speaking of OS, here is the newest drama with Digiworldz owner going after another competitor and of course the wolf pack forms with a taste for blood anyone refusing to play by the cult rules.

https: //plus.google. com/116282894634212418726/posts/7qtiTiYokCN?sfc=false

[Yourthere Sometimes]

@Yourthere

Remove Space placed after https: and after google.

https://plus.google.com/116282894634212418726/posts/7qtiTiYokCN?sfc=false

[Sylvia]

Those of us who paid for our sim grandfathering, this can be transferred to Sansar is that right?

[Sunbeam Skyfalcon]

SL is Old, why shouldn't they move everyone to Project Sansar.

[Clara Seller]

"SL is Old, why shouldn't they move everyone to Project Sansar."

New York is crowded and the infrastructure is old. Let's force everyone in Brooklyn to move to Oklahoma. Problem solved.

[Anshe]

I'm bout to share some even better announcement,
We have an exclusive, most stellar, Zindra sized continent, being built in the new universe.
You'll not need to have purchase homes or landscaping or distractions,it's going to be all labored for you simply, 24/7 support, offworld support, pay for services thru our exchange. how's living out all your wildest fantasies while we take attention of the rest thru our network,live all the dreams you'll imagine in our premier one of a kind world.(25% discount coming soon for early enrollment, if your membership is approved)

Experienced providers trusted since 2004, That's the legendary Anshe difference you can count on.

We'll see you all in Sansar!

[Resident]

Anshe.
I'm so excited to try it out.

long time tenant of yours on beautiful dreams region.

XoXo You =)

[Huckleberry Finn]

Agreeing with Clara!..'They are blindly throwing the baby out with the bathwater blindly!

[Carlos Loff]

Gwyneth, Change Happens so get over it,just a game.
What is so special about Trup is that, contrary to other candidates, he has show the bad beas he is right from the start, most americans wanted him, now live with it - votes have consequences even pixel ones.

Persephone, all the kool kids have moved to http://digiworldz.com/

[Iggy]

"That's why I still think that Linden Lab, at some point, will have no choice but to 'force' people to switch over to Sansar —"

Hope for the best, Expect the worst.

[Cindy Bolero]

Secondlife isn't going to go away any time soon, unless something catastrophic happens, like an EMP. SL (yeah you the estate owner and Marketplace shopper) is paying for Sansar. Do the math on 30 software engineers and overhead that goes with that.. Which is why I'm down to renting a parcel instead of owning estates.

I'm for Unity3D, and platforms built on that game engine. I'm not interested in paying for Sansar development at this time. Unity is more flexible, more powerful, more deliverable, more everything. Its freedom Baby! Not tied to an interface, not tied to a desktop, not tied to a grid.

And even though WebGL is still in diapers, the immersive 3D Web is right around the corner. If you're a Web Designer, start thinking' about it. If you're a content creator, get yourself out there. Developers are starving for game art.

[Han Held]

>Gwyneth in an SL utopian community in 2006 (which of course fell into acrimony and DMCA filings)

Of *course...*

Of course, as long as you're mentioning it, it's worth mentioning the name of that community; The Confederation of Democratic Simulators (formerly Neualtenburg) which worked through those ancient (11 1/2 years gone) conflicts, and in the intervening years has expanded (from one sim in 2006 to 6 today) and barring the collapse of SL, will continue on to it's fifteenth anniversary (in 2019) and well beyond....

Anyone who's interested should check out our facebook ( https://www.facebook.com/SLCDS/ ), our web site (portal.slcds.info) or hop over to Neufreistadt inworld.

So much for "utopia" eh? eh? [sarcastic winky icon goes here]

[Han Held]

My mistake: it was 10 and a half years, not 11 and a half OOOOPPPPSSS :p~

[Ryzen Skyfire]

As Han Held's position with community... has me reflecting being somewhat
saddened that it's going to be more about personal experiences than community. Not that I expected it to be SL 2.0, but I definitely was hoping for something that could improve on the limitations of dated architecture.

Experiences are cool. I've occasionally enjoyed them in SL, but the reason I log in as frequently as I do today isn't because of something I do ... it's because of "the world" Philip Rosedale imagined, and all of the people inside it.

I've always said that without community, SL is just one big lonely place. I don't know that Linden Lab ever got that ... they're still looking for web 2.0.

The virtual world will be built on a sense of community ... we are social animals after all. The "next" Second Life will get that, and will blossom. I had hoped that would a product of LL ... now I'm not so sure.

[Katnip Katnap]

I think it is a very healthy pass time right now to be super critical of all things new VR related.
The Hype sellers don't need no help. Even hard core fans of the idea should think seriously about what is the actual reality of the product and what is just desire fueled wishful thinking. There will certainly be many useful applications for VR as it progresses, but we are at the stage right now where the majority of products, beyond games, are pretty pointless, and merely demonstrations of what can be done.
This would be fine if it was dirt cheap or better, free to experience. But it is far from free, and many greedy people know that.

There is a lot of fake VR out there. You are to believe you are in a virtual world, when in fact you simply have 128 or 360 vision while glued to the spot, or being moved on a set track. The stuff experienced through a connected mobile device is not the same as that experienced through a Vive etc.
In a few years when the hype storm has passed VR will have found it's place in society, and I doubt it will be as all pervasive as predicted now.

The headset is a huge turn off for ordinary people, just show it to some and they get a sick claustrophobic feeling, leave alone having it strapped to their face. Sure, anyone will give it a go and be predictably stunned by the experience.
Some will even eventualy put up with it integrated into their work environment. A whole new generation of black eyed, retina blasted, face masked scared, hard core gamers will emerge without doubt.

But long term use by the masses, as is predicted for all of us by the hype storm, does anyone really see that happening through choice. Of course, as media companies run the world right now, it may well be forced upon us simply by deleting alternatives. I say give them a hard time and make them work for their money. And stop treating them like they run the online world and tell us what we want.

#VRGate

[lord]

There is essentially already an SL 2.0... 'Space' ....made by ex-lindens that opened about a month ago: http://sine.space/signup/creator

If I were LL, I would just buy up 'Space' and then make content transportable one way from SL to Space...of course, 'Space' would have to be renamed SecondLife so that LL doesn't break any rules with creators content...it could be SecondLife - Alpha grid to keep within their naming convention.

[Alpha Matrix]

With that said, it almost seems like Sansar is going to be something like Lumberyard. Which I just dont get. They have a 2nd chance to redo Second Life and instead of keeping the great things about SL (Like in-world building) they seem to be just doing what every other game engine is doing. I dunno.. just bleh

[Han Held]

@lord; I know that Adam Zaius, one of the original core opensim developers, is one of the founders of space. You're saying there are ex-lindens too? Who?

@Ryzen very well said. Solitary experiences are nice, but community is what makes things a home ...that's why I finally settled in secondlife; the people. I won't say Sansar won't have community; but I suspect that any community that grows there will be *in spite of* how it's managed.

[blueberryx]

People who read this blog are obviously not the target audience for Sansar...
Sansar needs people who see opportunities, while I only see comments about problems, here...

LL will take care of the people who take care of Sansar... That being said, my only concern is who becomes a millionaire first...

Those left behind, too bad not every person can be a winner... Some of us just have talent... I'm a winner...when you see me... This is what winning looks like...

[Edward Whitestar]

Sansar sounds great to me. I don't want a rehash of SL. If I want the SL experience, I'll login to SL. I want to be able to easily create a controlled simulation for training/education, with the hope of using a VR headset without the vomit inducing lag lag lag of SL.

[Mondy]

Can't see it happening. For the simple reason if they were ever going to consider it they would be trying to get people in already!

[Joe Builder]

@ Jimmy.
WitchHunts are very common in opensimulator with it only given people more reason to try out Spamsar when it begins.
@ Yourthere.
Digiworldz is a big bully. if you do not use his hosting services he will come after you 'until you do' -then all is forgiven :)

[JohnC]

I don't see Sansar and open sim as comparable really. Sansar is run by one company, Open sim, maybe to it's detriment, has no one in charge. If you had the nerve and the know how you could theoretically make something completely your own, and sell it as such with Open Sim. With Snasar, as with SL, everything you do will always be branded with the LL, SL,Sansar logo. But wherease if I take the Unreal engine and build a game you just add that logo on the end credits. With Sansar and SL that Logo goes to the front, and dominates the product. A sim built in SL or in Sansar. They own what you do, there is a massive difference compared to every other game engine and even Open Sim, if you dare step outside the confines of OS grid and the metaverse.

I find these Vast bland cartoon VR worlds extremely boring to look at, so I can only imagine they are even worse to explore.They create massive worlds and then realize that they have nothing to fill the vastness with except repeating rocks and trees. Every tiny part of reality is interesting and full of detail. I would rather spend my time in one highly detailed Thoughtfully created sim sized virtual space than walk forever in these awful looking bland lumps of mush. Minecraft is just popular because people like to be creative, but creative on a level scale. In Minecraft everyone can build the same dreadful retro ugly worlds and not feel inferior. Unfortunately mass market VR is going to go retro for a while until the hardware catches up. S we will see a lot of these "Amazing" mind numbing endless "experiences" before we get to see anything that resembles a decent Virtual reality, as in, a created reality that is virtually real.

[Slenda Wright]

Notch or Mojang couldn't replicate Minecraft's success if they tried.

What Minecraft-like game has come close to Minecraft's success? And if you've forgotten, Linden Lab has already tried to create a Minecraft with Patterns and BlocksWorld.

It's useless to point at Minecraft or WoW or other freak successes and say "hey, do something like that", hundreds try to and fail awfully. We have Minecraft that's way more popular than Second Life and there's a few hundred if not thousands of Minecraft clones that've come no where close to Second Life's success, let alone Minecraft's.

Taking something that's worked (Second Life) and something the company is actually good at (Second Life) and creating a better version is a better plan than repeating the Rod years burning money pretending to be a game company sans designers, writers, artists, musicians, and all the other non-engineer employees Linden Lab doesn't have.

Minecraft having tens of millions of users isn't a market. Talk to me about the #2 game like Minecraft and how well its doing and why Linden Lab should copy that one.

[Jolly Rodger]

My only interest in Sansar, and Im a long time Virtual Worlds builder and community manager, would be the ease to have affordable land and the ease of building, allied to not a very big learning curve compared to SL/OS - I don´t care a single pixel about VR, in spite of finding it cool and interesting but not the key to move to Sansar.

[Levio Serenity]

It seems everyone is freakin' out thinking that LL will force you to use Sanasar and abandon SL.
They have repeatedly stated that both will coexist - at best you will carry over your avatar name and L$. There is zero hope that your SL inventory will transfer - so get over that. Really, why would LL close SL - it's a cash cow! Sansar will do what SL failed to do - work with VR headsets at high frame rates, and be able to scale without the side-effect of lag.
I for one also welcome the idea of cheap land prices in Sansar!

[Cube Republic]

The linden marketing machine is in full swing!

First they will hand pick : This eludes exclusivity, makes the product more desirable, watch out for controlled leaks!

Get the bloggers, evangelists and experts talking too, free publicity ahoy!

I love SL, but come on guys :-)

[Iggy 1.0]

This is Iggy. I'll second what that other Iggy said: hope for the expect, expect the worst.

Great minds! Or two minds who have been dope-slapped by the Lab before?

[Iggy 1.0]

Hope for the best, even. The other Iggy is a better typist.

[Amanda Dallin]

LL will close SL if and when it stops being profitable. That is true whether or not Sansar ever existed. If it comes to that I'm sure they will try to entice those left in SL to move to Sansar. That doesn't mean it's a conspiracy to destroy SL.

[Iggy Lionheart]

@ Iggy 1.0 - all due apologies not knowing another Iggy was a poster here.

[Kara Trapdoor]

http://karasecondlife.blogspot.com/2017/01/will-ll-force-or-nudge-sl-residents.html My reactions to this post and comments are just too long to put here. If anyone is interested I've maid my own blog post and in a few years can look back on it and maybe laugh at myself. Time will tell.

[Shockwave]

I said at the outset - there must be one grid. I will not lose all my invested moneys in SL gear just to have to do it all over again with Sansar.

Historically no computer has survived without being backwards compible to at least one generation. When apple ditched the 68k and went to power pc, they were so concerned that they created code in the os to emulate the 68k. They were that worried about llosing customers over their having to buy thousands of dollars of software again. And here LL thinks we will act like blissful sheep and go where they say, our wallets open to them.

If i have to lose everything because SL goes poof, im sure as shooti not going to go to another grid run by the same idiots who mismanaged the last grid out of existence!

[JKB]

Meh I left SL a couple weeks ago with no intention whotsoever of returning; the community is pure toxicity so what on earth would lead me to think Sansar would be any different?

In any event, from all I've read about Sansar, it's an LL dictatorship filled with their favored creators and to woe-betide the muggle who might be stupid enough to venture in after them.

LL shit all over SL residents so now they're reaping what they've sown with Sansar - $20m flushed down the crapper and zero to no interest in it from the wider SL community whatsoever.

Poetic justice, I call that. May their losses keep piling up until every last one of them are bankrupt.

[Nop]

You are correct, JKB. 2 years later and LL is still a dictatorship, treating its current members and creators like they are children - everything they do is to infantilize and disempower people to do their bidding. Dissenting opinion is quickly quashed, even some people banned - because they broke some arbitrary rule LL staff make up on the spot, or interpret to their needs at the time.
Favouritism abounds, fueled by a modern SJW-LGBTQ fascist atmosphere in which anything you say on their toxic Discord or inworld can and will be used against you - and will offend some unicorn or snowflake eventually. These rejects from Tumblr have made their way to the VRspace and are bringing their sensitivities along with them - creating a snitch culture so bad, that combined with the PG-13 squeeky clean goal LL seems to want to have - will certainly cause it to go nowhere soon.