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Monday, August 14, 2017

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Flashing Merlin

Interesting to see shots from Sansar. However, since I'm an SL resident whose computers can't run Sansar, I'd really like to see a poll asking what percentage of SL users were able to run Sansar, and what gear they were using, and at what bandwidth.

Plus the obvious questions of how they like it compared to SL, and whether they intend to migrate, stay in SL, or continue in both?

Is it worth upgrading a computer which runs SL OpenSim, and High Fidelity with no problems, just to run Sansar?

Eggbert

Hi Merlin,

Yeah you should definitely upgrade your computer to the latest and greatest hardware and get a headset too. You should pay whatever LL wants you to pay to use Sansar too cuz it's sooooooo awesome!

Trust me. Do I lie?

-Eggbert

jay

It's 2017, the world is doing great, and we are all very rich people willing to pay whatever.

Wolkenreiter

Unless you're trying to run it on a cardboard box, Sansar is running much, much smoother than SL. As a regular, tho not hardcore PC gamer, I try to keep my PC at a somewhat recent state, and on my GTX960, which was a midrange gaming card 2 years ago, so pretty much yesterday's news, I'm experiencing performance from a roaring 170FPS, down to a still somewhat smooth 40FPS in crowded places with complex environments (tested on a community meeting last week with ab. 15 avatars around). In similar situations, SL would struggle to keep 15FPS, no matter how far I lowered my graphics settings. Bandwidth demands seem reasonable, too, since most of the content is preloaded before entering an experience. The 5 to 10MBPS they recommend seem credible, it meets my observations of bandwidth consumption with a lot of people talking on VoIP.
Whether it's worth to upgrade? There's little Sansar has to offer for casual wanderers at this point, it will take at least another year, probably longer, to grow to its full potential, so unless you have specific ideas that you want to realize there, you can probably keep skipping it for a while.
By the time it meets the expectations of end users, the last bit of hardware that is technically unable to run it, will have died of old age, anyway...

Pinkpulse

Wolkenreiter, Sansar was announced to surpass SL in every aspect, thus being capable of allowing hundred of avatars within the same "experience". As you can see, in truth you get a serious performance hit with just a dozen of avatars around.
Sansar and its economy model was meant for 10-100 million users and more, but how many people can run it actually? And how many of these few can run it in an enjoyable way?
When you teleport to a SL region, downloading and rezzing everything may take a while, but you can start to interact and to chat within few seconds. On Sansar you have to wait up to 20(!) minutes for the Apollo experience to load, at the recommended 10 Mbps. LOL

A GTX 960 is ok for Sansar (in desktop mode, while for VR the recommended card is a 970). Ideally gaming is better on desktop computers, but there are less and less people buying those ( = less Sansar costumers). The current trend is: mobile for general purpose and consoles for extra gaming. Luckily PC gaming isn't dead at all, but that's the hardware that lands on most homes now. If you want a laptop for Sansar, even just a 960M isn't so cheap (which is about 1/2 as powerful than your GTX 960). So laptops that can run SL, struggle with Sansar or fail to run it entirely. They can't be upgraded easily. On other hand SL is buggy, messy, old, so it doesn't take full advantage of your improved hardware, else it would run much much faster. For comparison, Sinespace is more modern and runs on anything (still under development).

Yes, you are probably right, it is going to take a long while to develop Sansar... So far you can give a look around. If you are a creator, you can get an idea of the tools, but they too are still basic and lacking.

To not be disappointed, curious folks should enter there expecting an alpha release with a list of nice views (no categories, search... only a list), better seen if you own an Oculus or Vive. They should expect that it is not for the masses, but to be really enjoyable it requires an hardware and a bandwidth that restricts it to fewer people. It's likely that your Sansar creations are going to have more views on Youtube than on Sansars. Maybe in the next decade... Don't expect awesome social experiences either: typical Sansar visits last briefly, then people leave. Nothing shows that you are typing and the chat is hidden by default. If you use voice, it's hard to know who is talking.

JohnC

looks just like SL to me, or SL a few years back. Lots of people just standing in a clump possibly chatting, who knows. At least in SL the clump is standing in a weird place doing and chatting about things that LL pretends are not happening. With any luck all the Techy nerds will leave for Sansar and leave SL to the far more interesting crazy people who really need and love it. And it is great that LL have something else to occupy their minds and leave us alone to furtively explore or weird fantasies in peace. Today I met five interesting minds that were far more interested in exploring their inner minds and sharing their fantasies than worrying about some new "experience" that costs to much and is really just a "game" in the worst sense of the word. SL is a living breathing world for those who take the time to give themselves to it. Soon I will get some land again and build some new "adult experience", as I have done many times before. Some weird trip to fascinate the minds of we who live a virtual life, and see nothing as yet in anyway to attract us to this new thing. Sansar, what's that? a new breakfast cereal? I hope it succeeds, the last thing we need is LL returning to SL and"cleaning it up" or"improving" it.

Wolkenreiter

@JohnC: Actually quite the opposite! For the large majority of residents (actual inworld residents, not the minority who cares about SL forums and blogs, obviously), SL is exactly that: A number of loosely coupled experiences they enjoy to visit, to shop, to socialize, to just fool around, and yes, to engage in adult activities of all kinds, of course. Most of them couldn't care lessabout megalomaniac ideas of a "metaverse" or "a new country", and probably would struggle to rez a plywood cube if their life depended on it.
Problem is that SL's development has largely been unsurveiled and unmoderated over the course of the last 14 years, with new features built on top of existing once and more and more user-made solutions that try to overcome the shortcomings of a platform that has started showing its age many years ago.
Dressing up and operating a state-of-the-art avatar has gotten more complicated than flying a combat jet, these days. Hunting down clothes that fit your particular brand of mesh body, finding the correct ones across a myriad of incompatible applier systems, fiddling with attachments across multiple windows and panels and HUDs occupying every corner of a screen. Tinkering with alpha glitches, mask and blend modes and neck blenders until it finally looks right - and you're saying Sansar is for the techies? lol
Sansar promises a fresh start on a clean slate, giving the creatives who have built the living, breathing world that SL has become, more powerful, streamlined tools to get more work done in less time, and at the same time their customers an easier, more polished experience that allows them to quickly get to the things they actually enjoy, rather than stealing their time with repetitive, frustrating tasks.
Wouldn't it be amazing if you could just browse the marketplace and preview items on your actual avatar? Clothing items and accessories that just fit, no matter if you're human or furry, no matter of your choice of body shape?
Yeah, I am a "techie", but I'm not seeing Sansar becoming what you do, but the opposite, a new world that benefits creatives and end users likewise.
And yes, I do hope that LL will enable adult content eventually. I don't think they're naive enough to neglect the huge commercial potential, but I understand their reasoning, the idea alone must cause their legal department bad nightmares, already, lol

Clara Seller

Interesting points from JohnC and Wolkenreiter.

Personally, I don't want LL to leave SL alone. I want them to get involved, in a major way, and improve their product and serve their customers who have supported their company for years. I agree with many of JohnC's sentiments, but I guess I'm just less Libertarian.

Wolkenreiter, on the other hand, is giving us a kind of Deep State vision of VR to gnaw on. Yuckadoodles. If we could just turn all of the creative power and vision (and rewards) over to the capable and let the mindless minions do what they do best (provide collective capital), what a wonderful world it would be.
Umm, no thanks. It's just plain boring like the world Sansar is promising. It's a stinker and it's completely misguided. Lying about what it could be changes nothing about what it is.

Why not build something that empowers and serves it's customers? The customer should be King. The company should serve the customer and the content creators should serve the customer. Sansar is all backwards by design and it's gonna fail. The customer gets to decide who is king. SL crowned many content creators and it wasn't based on royal bloodlines. It was based on who gave the customers what they wanted. Sansar has a bunch of wannabe royalty spouting their philosophy about how the world's gonna be. It's become pathological in it's delusion. It ain't happening. This whole thing needs to be scrapped and built on a foundation of what the lowlife want. Trust me on this one. We can't do a lot about how the real world is right now, but do you think that the Virtual World is gonna get people to pay to play with your totalitarian mindset? I just laughed so hard I vomited a little in my mouth.

Ciaran Laval

@Flashing Merlin, High Fidelity is just as demanding as Sansar in terms of specs, maybe High Fidelity doesn't check to see if your machine is capable of running it before installing.

Pulsar

@Wolkenreiter "Dressing up and operating a state-of-the-art avatar has gotten more complicated than flying a combat jet [in Second Life]"
That's true. More precisely, what you are using now isn't a SL avatar anymore: it is an ingenious, but cumbersome and not user-friendly workaround, made by various creative users. If you use the actual "system" avatar, all you have to do in SL is to click a shirt to wear it. Hair and shoes too. That's the same as Sansar - and any modern system - minus the preview. In SL you can actually create your own system hair, eyes and skin inworld. It was cool in 2003... but it is still look 2003. So we replaced hair with wigs, clothes with multiple "prim" addons, then "rigged" and "fitted mesh" clothes and alphas to wear, in order to hide body parts, then more body replacements, animation overriders, HUDs to wear to adjust your mesh body...

Sometimes it's easier to restart from zero, rather to try to improve an established core system like the avatar: you shouldn't break the old content, so you cannot get an optimal solution, but compromises. And SL is already quite complex. Eventually LL managed to create Bento anyway, extending the old avatar skeleton, without killing the old content. They are considering "texture backing" for "mesh" avatars too.
Sansar doesn't have these issues and workarounds, not just because it tries to be as easier as possible (it does try), but also because (as SL in 2003) Sansar has been made with that in mind already (obviously). Yet you are seeing the first workarounds already: users wearing a mesh name over their head. Don't expect that creative and ingenious minds will just sit and accept it passively as it is.

irihapeti

my experience of Sansar on Windows 10, i7, GTX660, 16GB ram, no VR devices, is no worse than running SL

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