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Friday, September 08, 2017


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Opensim never really found its own use. Yes it is nice to have the space and be able to try out new things. The hypergrid is great but you need your own sim to use it.
Most people do not want to run their own server thats why Second life still rules. I have my own grid but bought some new land in SL a week ago. Many of us Opensimmers use both.

Han Held

Thanks, I appreciate the shout-out, and I hope folks go over and read the original comment (and the one I was responding to) for context.

The biggest strength and draw of opensim is the fact that it lays as much power and control in a users' hands as they desire. That's it. As a commercial platform, it's a joke compared to SL; for socializing it is a very small pool indeed.

No, what makes Opensim unique and worthwhile is the fact that anyone can set up a region on their desktop (using Fred Buckhusen's Dreamworldz installer, for instance) or rented server (as I -and many others, do) create a region (or 8!) and then share that expression of their vision with others across the hypergrid.

For those who want the self expression but not the work, region rentals are obviously possible.

So, I disagree that Opensim never found a use. As a medium for exchanging ideas and visions in a way that is independant of network or providers (wether Lindens or others), in a way that is far more permanent than SL it is a wonderful application.

As I said on HGB, and like Cyberserenity, I also own land in SL. I am in SL for the friends, virtual families and communities I am a part of (Confederation of Democratic Simulators, represent!), I'm in SL for the history and virtual sight-seeing.

Many, many places I've loved in SL (Yadni's Junkyard, for instance) have vanished over the years -Yadni's, Greenies -there's an endless list of places that have sprung up and died untimely deaths.

With Opensim, I don't have to worry about clicking on a landmark and going through the rude shock of finding myself on an abandoned parcel instead of the site I <3 and expected to be.

Thanks to Opensim, and the backup facilities it provides (much more consumer/user-friendly than SL) as long as I have some sort of machine that is able to run Opensim.exe (eg, Virtualbox), I'll always have the opensim regions I create. And that makes opensim invaluable indeed.

That permanence and the top-to-bottom control are what makes Opensim appealing ...not half-baked schemes to make a mint.

Conversely -I live in Sansara; and sometimes when I'm tired and none of my friends are on I take to the sky and just fly as far as I can -and the land, and the cozy home-spun builds never seem to end. SL is a world, or feels like one. And whenever I spend too long in opensim I come to miss that feeling of being a part of a larger place.

So yeah -Opensim? Secondlife?
As the meme reads ...why not both?

Han Held

"The OpenSim community may not have the luxury of choosing both. Given its small size (about 10-15,000 active users across all grids) any significant shift in usage back to Second Life could exert enough inertia to grind the open grid to a halt. "

I'd like to correct two points here;

1)the hypergrid isn't a single grid, with a single provider; it's a network of grids and standalones connected by the hypergrid protocol.

There isn't a single company to shut down -even if the devs stop work tomorrow, you still have grids out there on the hypergrid chugging along on 0.7.X; they're not shutting down unless and until their owners get sick of running them.

2)Related to point number one and it's something I mentioned in my previous post. As long as it's possible to run an instance of opensim you'll have people on the hypergrid. Even if somehow .NET applications were banned from Windows, MacOS and Linux (good luck with that), you'd be able to run it in qemu, virtualbox or (in theory) docker.

It's more likely that Opensim will follow a trajectory like the CB craze did -ham radio is far from mainstream, but there's still plenty of hams out there.

In the future someone, somewhere will be running Opensim on their desktop.

Han Held

Last post (tonight); -I misspelled Fred's name; it's Fred Beckhusen ...owner of outworldz.com and creator of the dreamworldz installer (in addition to many, many other things).

Sorry, Fred!

sirhc deSantis

As if there wasn't enough OS dramaz they really have to stretch for this one :) So yes, happy to have both. And for a laugh - writing this via MOAP on our own little OpenSim install (HG capable too) running on a spare PC and used to test and build in peace - ain't technology grand.

Carlos Loff

Hi and thank you for your reference, here is my full opinion and article sent to Hypergrid Business, so my vision does not show simplistic, my SL avi is - Loff Auer -------- ORIGINAL ARTICLE SENT TO HGB

Even if many do not recognize it, SL is an "unfinished business" to everyone - if not, why did anyone deleted their SL accounts ???

I developed many projects in Second Life, since 2007, including whole Sims and Homesteads, creating many personal friendships and collaborations, quite a few friendships even migrated to my RL, and I still go there from time to time, as many Opensimers still do

I also met many great people on Opensim, started ambitious projects (none of them dead, just waiting in the closet - OARs) and follow and comment many blogs and forums, so I believe my opinion, although not statistical, is based on a comprehensive perception of reality, from both platform users

I believe we are all much more attached to Second Life than we might think, even those that don't login there for many months - SL is the reason why we are all here on the first place and our accounts were not deleted - Why haven't Opensimers deleted their SL accounts, have you all thought seriously about that ???

My deep believe is that people still have to much at stake in inventory and friendships at SL and the main reasons why so many flocked to Opensim is not just because they thought it was better and SL did not matter any more. It is mainly, with due small exceptions, because they were not happy at all with Linden Lab and felt themselves somehow on a dead-end

The main stream of Opensimers are world creators, project developers and product sellers and although we find some time to attend parties, classes and events, we are all mostly on the production side and not on the consumer one, witch means SL still holds a huge ammount of pure consumers for products and events - we buy from each other but the gross consumer crowd is not here yet at OS

For me, the main reason to leave SL, and I believe for many others, was the relation Land Size VS Land Fees and Opensim has a huge strong selling point - 10 times more land per 10 times less fees - that is just determinant for the actual OS success, no matter which other aspects you bring to the equation, this is the determinant factor at the end of the day - Would you all be doing what you are doing now at OS at the same SL's fees rate ???

On SL we could not afford long term projects and many time had to polute them with stores rentals or other side business to be able to cope with "unforgiving" tiers, also bringing many stress and personal wars between tier paying partners because LL was fast and furious digging into everyone's wallets - Yes, many wars were based on stress and stress was based on time VS fees, think about it, you will endup agreeing

Opensim offered us more space, more prims and more time, free of stress, even causing me, and others, to have more land and goals than we could attend and making me downsize, but not because of fees, hell we can even offer whole Sims to our old SL friends if they dare to migrate

What lacks more on Opensim, for me, is content, in diversity and quantity - few months ago I tried opening a resort on an SL rented Homestead, one last try at their business mode and just managed to create all the main builds and infinit small decors and details, with living creatures and interactive gadgets and vehicles, all in just 4 days - Just had to dig into my huge inventory and browse and buy ver few new stuff, and by using my old populated groups got back in contacts and visits right away - Well, I closed it down, almost crying, after 2 months of unforgiving tier prices, but I had already done concerts and had some regular visitors - I had to give myself and SL one last chance

On OS I just can't find an interactive free roaming dolphin, I would get stuck in many simple content needs, right from the begining and of course most potential renters/residents/customers are mostly creators that already own huge lands and projects

All this said, and with no offence to many wonderfull OS efforts (Me included with 3 huge projects), we must keep recognizing that Opensim still has a bit of an refugee camp feeling, not per se, but when we compare it with SL population, content, activities and business transactions - SL is like that ex girlfriend/boyfriend, that we may not see everyday but with whom many issues are still pendent and not solved at all

What we need and all wish for at the Metaverse, our dream scenario, is - either Opensim becomes big, filled with users and content or either SL becomes much cheaper and flexible

The first scenario takes loads of time and personal efforts, as we all know and have been trying since the begining - The second scenario is at the distance of an LL business-meet and at the simple click of few buttons, they could do it almost overnight, if not strategically they at least can technically

Yes, yes, Opensim has some distinctive advantages - Megaregions, OARs and NPCs, just to name a few - But do you all think, if they really wanted, LL could not achieve all of that in one month work from their team ???

Many will say - No - and many will say - SL never again - but if you seat and relax and deeply think about what you still hold on your SL account and legacy, the minute they seriously lowered their prices, increased land sizes and allowed OARs, I believe 90% of Opensimers woul dive back in SL right away, overnight, although emotionally most will not agree right away, without a deep reflection period

So, I do not believe Linden Lab, with their huge mistery announcement, will bring the necessary revolution, at all, because they always prefered 1 pigeon at hand than 3 flying around, but... BUT - If they really do bring a Revolution, forced by Sansar faillure (yes - total faillure) and motivated by new techs, they can, yes they can, whipe out Opensim on a few months !!!


Good points there. I'd add that when Han writes "I am in SL for the friends, virtual families and communities" (and Han isn't the only one) it's because SL is also a social thing. That's a major obstacle that alternative products have to face, not only with SL.

You can create the best social network ever: people will keep on using Facebook. You can create the most secure, easy to use, feature rich messenger ever: people will keep on using WhatsApp, as they did even when it was the worst of the lot. You can build the most awesome town square ever conceived, people will continue to meet in the usual place. Why? Because their friends are there, because people are there.
Pretty circular. How do you break out of it? MSN alternatives had only little slices of the pie, but Skype had different uses. Eventually they got merged. No way again, but meanwhile IT was moving from mostly desktops to more smartphones, the new market was growing quite large and WhatsApp thrived in the new land.

Different uses and whole new paradigms.
If you create an alternative social VR world, and essentially that, you are doomed from the start. If people appealed by that are already in Second Life, you can have the cheapest prices and largest regions, but people won't jump boat, and rather continue to rent expensive regions even if they always ask for lower prices. You won't win with that. Only a niche would move there. SL is a niche too, so now you have a niche of the niche, instead of a mass market. OpenSim is ok with that: it isn't like a big company investing capitals in the project and needing large profits.
As OpenSim, Sansar offers cheaper and larger spaces, and I'd have an hard time in saying they were able to think so much of the box. If you aren't a creator, so far Sansar is a dumbed down SL with better graphic. And a different account, different avatar, different virtual currency. Your friends are elsewhere, your inventory and money too. Maybe the VR equivalent of the first iPhone still have to appear (who knows?), but meanwhile VR looks overhyped again, and not the next thing as smartphones were.
Unless you get something game changing, I won't expect too much.

Chic Aeon

Did I miss something here?

I can find NO OFFICIAL statement that Linden Lab plans for "on demand" worlds. The links in the Hypergrid Business post only go to things most of us have read --- which said nothing of the sort.

I posted on the SL forums asking if anyone knew ANYTHING official that suggested this move. Lots of comments to that post, but no references.

*So this appears to be all supposition.*

IF SL lowers its land prices BY WHATEVER MEANS, that could certainly impact Opensim for some folks. For others? They wouldn't blink an eye. People are there for various reasons and it isn't all just about money.

But next time -- maybe dig a little deeper before passing on what seems to be misinformation.

I know. Old record. Would like to put it in the trash but doesn't seem like it is quite ready to go there :D.

IF you have any actual information that ON DEMAND worlds will be the new hot SL thing, then please let us know. If not?


Carlos Loff

cyberserenity - you must have been hiding under a rock fro many years, lol, or else you like to comment what you do not know - do not be offended but yu are misleading people with something VERY out of date

Opensim works exactly like Second Life, companies open their servers and you just, EXACTLY LIKE ON SL, order you sim, or sim, or megasims and do whatever you like with it

Try www.digiworldz.com - you are up to an big surprise and update, very late due to you

Having your own server is a possibility on OS, an extra, not a need AT ALL, LOL

Han Held

Given that she's a part of Avatarfest, I can vouch that Cyberserenity does, in fact, know about opensim and I'd dare say even knows about digiworldz.

It's more likely that she means that to take advantages of opensim's strengths one needs one's own server. Obviously I disagree, and you are right that one can open up a free account at metro grid and hop around the hypergrid without needing a region of one's own.

But she has not "been hiding under a rock fro many years, lol". She simply has her own perspective and set of priorities than you.


Carlos Loff

Han Held - She should have pointed that it was her dpecial usage, otherwise just saying - Most people do not want to run their own server thats why Second life still rules - Is on it's own cometely missleading for any one from SL that wishes to know more about opensim and this rare attention that NWN gave to OS is a great opportunity

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