Linden Lab Should Bring the Latest Technology to Second Life -- Even If It Means Breaking Old SL Content (Comment of the Week)

Pictured: SL animesh, circa 2017

During my GDC week interview with Linden Lab's Ebbe Altberg -- I'm running it in a few days, promise! --  we talked a fair amount about trying to improve Second Life graphics and performance without obsoleting old SL content. Reader "Seph", however, argues otherwise:

[A]t what point are the possibilities of new, better looking, better functioning, and more attractive to modern audience content worth more than stuff in our inventory from 2012 or before? The Internet is used to having old features deprecated and then taken away to usher in the new. Why is Linden Lab so religious about content from 2006 still working today when often it means falling even more behind your peers in tech? Because of this devotion to not breaking olds things, Second Life will never again be apart of GDC or other trade shows that're about evolving with and pioneering new tech in rendering and simulated experiences. Linden Lab would probably be ashamed showing off Animesh and how it works to a room full of creatives at whatever gathering you met with Ebbe at, and the reason for that shame is Linden Lab religiously embracing technical debt and backwards compatibility to stuff creators are desperately hacking around and trying to get rid of.

But won't obsoleting content cause the community to revolt? Seph's reply to that concern:

The excitement from Linden Lab announcing a new rendering engine for texture artists, custom uploadable skeletons/rigs for animators, a modern well-known scripting language for programmers, etc., would far outweigh whatever old things that need to go.

Yes, you'll be destroying old things in people's inventory that they paid for a really long time ago, but again why should Second Life be the hold out on the Internet in not breaking old things? There's apps I've paid hundreds for in 2008 that don't work anymore, dozens of video games 10 years ago that have all sorts of issues that I don't expect to work anymore due to their age. Old stuff working isn't a religion outside of Linden Lab, so why should it be within? There'd be backlash to breaking old content to enable new kinds of content, but that backlash is defeated by making what's gained way better than what's lost.

That sounds right. And there doesn't even need to be a backlash; Linden Lab could fairly easily separate Second Life into an SL Classic Grid where all the old content still works and is accessible on a classic viewer, while launching a Second Life which has all the best features of SL (single shard, prim-based creation, etc), but built to scale on the latest technology. Rebrand it as "SL3D" or somesuch, so it's clearly distinct from SL Classic, and you could probably bring in a new audience too.

What do you think?

Comments

[Willliam Burns]

Absolutely correct.

Though one could also suggest not overtly trying to break everything. It would require a list of things that wouldn't be backed compatible if upgraded or overhauled, and then decide if the upgrade outweighs the compatibility.

You could have support for LSL remain while introducing more powerful scripting. You could upgrade quite a bit without breaking stuff. This is a transition period while old methods are phased out and deprecated.

No need to have two Second Lifes running.

[montecore babcock]

Yeah, a big no to killing LSL scripts. There's stuff I've spent hundreds on that would piss me off if they stopped working. You can't just dump over a decades of stuff, then hope that a small market of content providers may or may not replace. Houses, planes, boats, games, huds, etc.

[D]

I don't see the Lab wanting to support two diverging versions of Second Life, with bug fixes, requests to copy a version of one feature to the other, etc.

Also, once a precedent is set ("We'll break all the content in a few years"), the "new" grid probably won't attract as many creators.

[Clara Seller]

Personally, I'm willing to give up my rotary phone, 8-track tapes, Instamatic Camera, and lucky Smith Corona typewriter. It's not like we haven't had to do this before.

[Lee McKay]

DO IT...if it breaks things, let it break them. I'd rather see a resurgence in Second Life than keep a decade old script running. You know what the result is if we don't do something like this? It'll all be gone in a couple more years anyway, because regardless of the committment from LL, the people are dwindling.

[Mina]

As long as we will still be able to keep the fun of easy-building-with-prims inworld, and not like some other VR that makes building so hard. It should also still stay kind enough to the people with low graphics computers from around the world.

[Phan Republic]

I had always hoped LL had built Sansar with a secret switch to turn it into a true SL 2.0 if their "experiences" project failed. So ... my answer is YESSSSSS. Being a fashion and culture queen, those things that others worship were deleted from my inventory a LOOONNNNGGGGG time ago.

[kenz]

Even LL intended to take care of the old stuff. The new tech recently year already obsoleted them, just still can function poorly. The situation is quite like 64bit system still need to concern 16bit software. I totally agree to introduce new tech to sl even breaking the old.

[Actingill Igaly]

LSL needs replacing with a proper OO language (think myprim.faces(0).opacity=0.1) This could easily run side by side with LSL to keep our content running (I'd sooner bin the old content and start over, but it would appear I'm in the minority). Give creators a couple of years to migrate over then delete (yes delete!) any items using LSL. That would clear out the grid of all those old abandoned items, revitalise the economy, and bring more new blood into SL. If things don't change, will SL be here in another 15 years? I doubt it

[Connie Arida]

What percentage of people still use prim furniture and"classic" avatars? Those are the people who breaking things would hurt. Not many huh?

[sirhc desantis]

OK then. Tell me what is going to break and the time frame and I will make the decision on whether to spend any more on the platform. Only thing - that call will be made now. Deal?

[AmandaMagick]

When it's time to more forward it's time to move forward. When really really old things in SL brake and don't work thats the price to pay for all the even greater things to come. It's like closing doors and opening new doors. I love my old things but lets be honest, when do I use my old things? Almost never they sit in my inventory like I am a hoarder. I don't even remember what I have anymore.....

We all need rehab for hoarding. Now that's an idea...

[vwfan]

I'm surely looking forward to a newly refreshed SL! I don't mind breaking content if it comes down to it. Just look at all the shoppers who trashed their legacy looks for those mesh bodies, heads and appliers. The idea of a separate grid/viewer is useful if the Lab plans to do regular updates for a new SL. That way you don't interrupt the existing SL which would frustrate users.

In my opinion, the new SL has to be well worth it to justify saying goodbye to the legacy SL. Like, AAA game/engine worthy. Question is, can the Lab live up to the challenge?

Make Second Life Great Again

[Hurana Ugajin]

Make a new grid, or just convert Aditi to a C# script base grid with 1024x1024 regions while updating from the defunct OpenGL to Vulkan API making it a true 64 bit platform. There you can update graphics engines to allow drastic flexibilty in texture and mesh animation. The Lab needs to listen to their users who know the industry.

[Todd]

we need new scripting, a new prim upgrade with more features like CSG, fillet, lathe, holes, extrusions, etc. Many many (even web based) modelling programs handle this with ease these days. Full Unity / Unreal programmable materials system, but still allow objects to be built, programmed and sold in-world.

I think the system died a mini-death when the sales were taken out of world in-mass into the marketplace. The sense of wonder left and the malls dried up. The sense of "community" withered up because no one wanted to sell things in-world any longer. Even if there is a market place, make it so that tools for creating a marketplace entry are in-world and the marketplace is used to AUGMENT in-world experiences, not replace them.

[Gingir Ghoststar]

"Also, once a precedent is set ("We'll break all the content in a few years"), the "new" grid probably won't attract as many creators." as a newer creator I call bullshit. The new generation will happily step in and fill that spot. Just as we've seen with mesh clothing, mesh bodies, home builders, ect... if you fall behind there is another person right behind you ready to take your spot. This is why brands like Zooby are working to stay on the cutting edge, or these high-end clothing designers (for as much as people bitch about messy mesh models) are killing it and everytime someone "takes a break" or goes on to "rl" there is someone else right behind them to take up the mantle and push what SL can do just a bit further.

[Linn]

"What percentage of people still use prim furniture and"classic" avatars?"

Probably a lot more than you think. I see people all over who don't use mesh avatars; some even don't use mesh clothing. Lag is a part of the reason; being happy with an avatar that you have looking the way you want it is another, or just not liking the look of mesh. ("If I wanted a skirt that stretched and compressed like a system skirt, I'd wear a system skirt. At least flexi skirts have bounce and movement to them!")

Same thing for prim furniture, though I suspect rather more use mesh buildings and furniture (and garden items) even if the things are not quite what they want, because of lower LI.

[irihapeti]

What Linn said.

It is possible to do all the new functions and capabilities asked for here, without having to obsolete user-made content.

For those who want a whole new world free of Second Life legacy (history) then Linden already heard you. Its called Sansar.

This said I am with those who want more prim torture tools, and all of a prim/assets properties surfaced in the Editor tool to complement a 3D object oriented language. And a prim-to-mesh convertor. And a animation editor to create animations directly on my avatar and animesh things. And a mesh extrusion tool that lets us select an area of mesh and move it with the weighting automagically adjusting. And ... a least a dozen more things immediately. About 50 actually :)

We could have all these things still, and we do get things from Linden which we cross off from the big long list of everything we ever wanted, as and when we do get them. Which when go back 16 years has been a pretty big list of things we did get. And over the next 16 years we will get a whole bunch more. Including everything I have mentioned and everything else others have mentioned here also.

[sirhc desantis]

Not the first time I have thought that ser irihapeti should be running SL.

[Mondy]

A new type of SL with a new rendering engine and content where you don't have your old inventory because it wouldn't work? a completely new design and separate it from the old SL. Oh! Sansar!

[Bette* then Ezr*]

Agreeing as well with irihapeti, how about also parcel owners be allowed to change textures on land they own without needing estate rights.

I still think SL is great, it just needs to take advantage of modern hardware were even the entry level stuff now could beat most top end systems from 5 yeas ago.

Linden Lab needs a 3rd platform thats a hybrid of both SL/SS, also they might want to consider offering a semi opensource version of the sansar engine this would allow more community development

[Aliasi Stonebender]

You don't necessarily need to break everything. People speak of 'giving up rotary phones'... but actually, I believe a number of old phones can still be used with a converter, if this Google search I just did is right.

Sure, break things when you must. But don't break things because it's easy.

[Jim Clark]

I was face palming with the article.
But after the comments, I'm face desking.

First of all, it's not like LL hasn't broke LSL powered objects before, SEVERAL TIMES.

But for the people applauding and jumping on the "break it" train, two things...
A) Where is your successful 15 year old virtual world built on all these great ideas that you have.
B) Star Wars Galaxies, look it up.

I've given plenty of shit to LL and even headbutted some people on the firestorm dev theme, so it's not like I'm "stuck in the past" certainly not when what I use is only a few years old when I myself have been on SL almost 15 years.
But you people are talking like you have to break it to make better.
I hear a lot about a more powerful LSL, as is LL has more than enough trouble keeping people from exploiting it, but sure, let's make it more powerful because what could possibly go wrong???

Another thing I hear plenty (absent on this page) is people asking for 2048x2048 texture cap, or no cap at all.
Well good news, LL raised the cap to 2048x2048... in the past, at which point the users started to slap those on every surface which cause crashes on mass.
I have a pair of shoes that has 90MB worth of textures on, it's asinine to say the least, and everyone does this.
Running SL alone on my system will use up all 6GB of VRAM and another 5GB of RAM, because content creators can't help themselves.

Now let's lift all the limits and throw everything away on a whim, it will be great! Revitalise the economy! New blood!

Seriously, how many competing platforms came and went?
And it's not like Sansar isn't a thing, but hey, always amusing reading to arm chair engineers telling how it should be!