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Monday, July 08, 2019

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Summer Haas

To answer your question directly and to clarify that last paragraph, it was directed specifically at shopping events that are packed with avatars and running at a fraction the speed they should be. This isn't a place anyone should socialize in, you can't even walk. Yet here we have a server faithfully trying to update avatar physics and push everyone's avatar information to everyone else who does not need to see it at all.

If region owners had a way to disable all that, if even just for the first day of an event, it would go a long way to improving performance in those specific regions and allow people to get in, get what they want, and get out, letting others get in much faster.

Seriously though, if you are standing around socializing in a shopping event with 45 avatars in the region and another 145 using TP hammers trying to get in, shame on you!

Sure SL is primarily a social platform, but there is a time and a place for everything. Packed shopping events that attract specifically the type of people who have decked out avatars with the most extreme rendering cost are not one of them.

DiJodi Dubratt

I do hope this table posts correctly, Typepad is prehistoric in its use of HTML and I tried many times to get this posted with some sort of correct formatting. I suppose if you're really interested you'll be able to figure it out.

Body                                   VisTris        Max Tris    FPS (PC)     RANK (1 is best)FPS (MAC)
Legacy Demo                    823.6          694.1               85                      14                  33
Valentina (own head)        266.8        231.5         100                       13                       38
Mia (own head)                 276.8        234.5            110                        12                       42
Ebody                              109.1          95.9            110                        11                       42
Slink                                    121.7            108.0            110                       10                   42
Eve                                     80.9           76.5             113                        9                       43
Sofia                                 198.7         166.7             114                        8                       44
Clodet (own head)           284.5        246.3             114                        7                        44
Maitreya                           255.3        230.7             120                       6                        46
TMP                                  687.5        641.2              124                       5                        48
LucyBody                         184.5        169.1              128                       4                        49
Belleza                             521.3         490.5            132                       3                        51
Ocacin                               67.7           61.4             132                       2                        51
Ruth                                  29.9           26.6             136                        1                         52

Disclaimer:
Very unscientific. Data was taken in the same sandbox (empty but for our 2 avatars) and all within 30 mins. We were both looking out to sea, so the only rendering was water and sky. We didn't look at each other, and never do. No head/hair unless stated. Some of the avatar bodies come with a head, hence the notation "own head." If the avatar doesn't come with a head, we didn't use a head. Everyone was naked. We know fps is quite variable, and this fps data is what we experienced at that place and time, and your mileage will probably vary considerably. We can't explain what happened with the TMP body. We may need to test it again, when we have time, which is probably never. We love male bodies, and furries, and other alternative bodies, and we think they are worthy of testing, but we don't own many of these, and are too poor to buy them. If you own these bodies, feel free to test them and add them to this list.

DiJodi Dubratt

I'm sorry, the entire table didn't post correctly. Hamlet, can you help? Otherwise interested parties are welcome to contact me or Wasnot inworld for a copy.

DiJodi Dubratt

Of course it's not too late! I used to own a lot of hair from a well-known SL creator, and when complexity information became available, I saw that this hair was pushing my complexity through the roof. The creator has since re-issued all of this hair in lower-complexity versions.

I also was just at a music event where a very well-known SL musician was attracting large crowds, and his complexity was well over 200,000. I guess my question is, does all of this really make a difference? If we all lower our complexity will I get faster fps? If we all use less complex mesh will it make a noticeable difference? I would love to see a rigorous testing of this theory.

Taylor

Yes, it's too late. The only true solution would be for the Lab to have imposed reasonable but hard triangle import limits in the first place like they've done with Sansar.

But they didn't, and given that this is a world where most people shop based on how nice things look, we're stuck where we are. No smart creator is going to sabotage their own sales by intentionally releasing an inferior-looking head or body just to reduce complexity.

Pulsar

An option to disable physics etc in a certain region wold be a good idea indeed.
It used to be fun shopping with friends: "oh, look at that!" "That one looks so good on you!" "Hi, you are here too, look, I saw something you might like"... Nah, you can't do that at those shopping events. At the most crowded ones it can be a pain even to try the demos out. So, if you ever manage to get there with the sim always full and DDoSed by the tp requests, what do you do then? Just click on a few vendor pictures, hoping the vendor didn't crash meanwhile, and then teleport away?
Nice. Then they could just make a website, linked to the marketplace, and it would be the same, except more practical and usable (I'm not saying this entirely seriously of course - well, emaybe it could done... - but I mean that these events have lost part of their meaning inworld in this way).

Pulsar

Ok, it is a porn simulator. It can feel like one, yeah. I was about to say "on the other hand, they sell all those 4-5000 L$ boats..." nah, I forgot, they packed these too with erotic poses. Also all those sexy, skimpy, sheer clothes and insane high heels... but don't fret, maybe you can find a normal pair of shoes if you are lucky!

Here we go, let's say we purchased our sexy stuff and all the bits at the super laggy shopping event. Now the porn simulator awaits for us.

Except Second Life is the poor version of a porn simulator. This is the porn simulator where avatars need to tweak their position in order to align even for a kiss. Let alone all the hilarious stuff, like some shaft that sticks out of some head.
Just because SLers are used to that and to all the other awkward and cumbersome stuff, it doesn't change the fact that SL isn't really designed for that.
Unless you are an happy pose-hopper and all your interaction is "mmm" "aaah!", there is much better than it. I guess some dedicated VR stuff with another person may be another planet. Even just in VRChat a caress on your face with the HDM and full body tracking is a whole other thing compared to SL.
Else what may make SL interesting for you, on the erotic side, is your fantasy, emotes, roleplay... which is mostly texting anyway. As a "porn simulator", SL is just somewhat better than that. There is who does that via IM, not even meeting their avatars inworld. If you find someone good at it, at least.

Meanwhile, as of today, if you search for "sex" and sort by traffic, atop the list what you can see? Mostly AFK places (where you park an avatar there for tips) and a few poledances (that basically do the same, except not afk). But it's likely that for most the tips won't repay the electricity used.

There is some truth about the sex sells, but what if your potential partner crashes in front of your tower of polygons and textures? Or didn't see you, as you were derendered as well as every non-friend avatar.

Is SL becoming more and more lonely?
Where you can see your own avatar and that's all matter?

This is the most popular topic on the forums and the one where comments get highest amount of likes now.
https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/405992-how-does-your-avatar-look-today/

It looks like SL has rather become a virtual selife simulator LOL.

Zan

I think that in some cases what could help curb bad mesh body behavior is for other bodies to compete AND for people to release their mesh kits optimized and freely instead of keeping shit under lock and key.

Give us dev kits in A poses ready to export to Marvelous Designer so we can get started quick on making clothing for these.

Newer mesh bodies don't always have good alpha slicing and needs more work.

Pulsar

It's too late only if nobody cares and if Linden Lab doesn't fix/improve the complexity formula.
Some brand makes 700k tris hair that doesn't look any better than 30k ones. All those extra tris are just wasted resources. They could well optimize and reduce the pointless extra and nobody would notice any loss. Ditto with textures. Make a well made one that covers all the faces, instead one for each face.

irihapeti

as was mentioned by Subversive Vavoom "It's as if the people saying this haven't really played SL very much in the last few years."

the last thing we go to shopping events for is to shop. It's to see what is new, and as equally important to see and be seen. Same as the "how does your avatar look today" thread on the forums, and on all the Flicker et al posts

Events: music, shopping, charity, social, gardening, whichever. We get dressed up in our best outfits and go to be seen at our best. Being seen at our best is the whole point. Same in RL when we dress up to go out of the house into the public view

Susan Wilson

There's no putting this genie back in the bottle unless, for example, Maitreya was to update their current body in a way that was better optimized but all the clothing made for it would still fit and the body still looked as good as it does now. That would shame the other mesh body makers into doing the same. I kinda suspect that if this was possible it would have been done already.

Adeon Writer

It was a mess of content rights, but I managed to track down all (7!) of the various creators of one of my avatar kitbashes for permission to port it to VRChat.

And let me tell you, if you think getting 7 SL creators to say “yes” to using your content outside of SL would be the hardest part..

Once I got it all imported in blender and lined it all up the whole thing totaled to 260,000 triangles. After a week of optimization I got it down to only 6,000 triangles.. which ironically is less than the original model used for just it’s tiny zipper tag

Rowan V

Again- graphical lag is entirely user end. We have all the tools to determine the rendering cost of other avatars and decide if we want to render them or not. Crippling the platform because some people can't be bothered to learn what their PC is capable of is totally asinine. You already have the ability to turn off basically all avatars in busy places like sales events- it's call "See Friends Only", and it can easily be toggled on and off as needed.

No one is ever going to agree to this dumbfuck rendering cost Nazi bullshit. Learn how to optimize for yourself and let other people do the same.

Let's do a picture together

I think people are right when they say that this is a lost cause. Linden Lab and content creators have absolutely no will or incentive to initiate change. Just keep playing along and spending your money until everything flames out. Amen.

At this point, what I don't get, is why Sansar haas been developed with such horrible avatars? It's a do nothing look at me selfie world. It's always been a museum of me in it's concept. I finally get the WordPress connection. It's resource efficient because if nobody cares to look, it doesn't exist. That's pretty much where SL is headed anyway. SL feels more social and alive in the enhanced post-process world of Flickr these days. Flawed avatars meet up in SL to strike a shared pose, but their beautiful love affair is realised in the make-believe images they post and fav elsewhere.

It's one great avatar away from finally putting SL out of it's misery. Why don't they just do it? Yes, a lot will be lost, but we've known for a long time that it's as good as dead already.

Trinity Blackburn

I agree. As a 14 year old SL bet..sl has become ingratiated with outright pixelated prostitutes and nameless John's. Lag and overscripting of oneself to * fit in* is at the forefront of the issues.
I relate to the aspect of * feeling lonely*..in a game of thousands.. who are we really? Seeking comfort in a virtual world.

Carl Erickson

Shopping events aren't the only events with heavy traffic. Depending on the situation, certain smart Sims actually make it a rule for visitors to keep rendering impact below a certain threshold or get ejected. Usually measured by a combination of memory usage and script count. And there are ways to follow these rules too and still look photogenic but mostly requires cooperation from visitors. Occasionally there are also people who deliberately try to lag and crash sims but most visitors that genuinely wish to partisapate in events usually follow whatever rules the Sim owners post

Blaise Glendevon

Summer Haas' suggestions would be the ones that lead me to never log in again. I decide how my world looks, and in how fine a detail it is rendered. It's galling enough that Firestorm automatically turns the LOD down. 4 is acceptable. 2 would be insufferable.

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