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Tuesday, July 02, 2019

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Epredator

Well that sounds like a lot of hassle. They have no problem taking hundreds of dollars for my islands. Seems time to leave after 13 years 😞

DrDuh

uh, ya, no cant blame bin ladin for this one, of the patriot act, western union, skrill, nor paypal asks for social security numbers, only Linden labs new money laundering service does, and you didnt even touch base as to why they have tilia registered in the UK as a UK financial company.

amandamagick

I am also wondering why it's a UK company but based at LL. I am a little confused on that one. But the only people affected are those who are cashing out. In actuality LL has been using Tilia already if you notice your transactions on the LL website you will see Tilias name. This bombshell by Aug 1st is what got everyone stirred up all of a sudden.Here is my blog post and I will ping you too. https://magickthoughtssl.com/2019/07/01/important-changes-to-your-second-life-accounts-with-the-introduction-of-tilia/

JohnC

Happy birthday!

Renee Wilson

Looks like it's time to move to Sanzar where you can charge more for your stuff everything looks better and you don't have to deal with all this BS.

Jade

To me this just opens another door to indentity theft if they get all that info. Asking for a drivers license is one thing buy asking for your birthdate and social security number as well, alot of us that are talking are thinking of leaving.

Ilsa

So, I have to ask a few questions? Can I sue linden lab when my information is stolen from them?
Is it based out of the UK in order to keep me from suing when my information is stolen?
Will my ssn, address, bank information and account information all stored together so joe the axe murderer has easy access?
Can I still turn L$ in to USD and keep it on my account to pay my monthly stipend without having a tilla account?

Bet

"So if you're angry about having to switch over to Tilia, blame it on bin Laden. Or overreaction to bin Laden. Or both!"

Your basis?

Mine:
https://www.fincen.gov/sites/default/files/2019-05/FinCEN%20CVC%20Guidance%20FINAL.pdf

JohnC

"Looks like it's time to move to Sansar" Would that not be the very definition of the saying "Out of the frying pan into the fire"

Devon H Chastain

Nope. No. Sorry Linden love you but you have All you need now to collect my money. No Social security card. Thatisnt required Anywhere to pay a fee. Selling my land. You already raised fees and like NY GOVERNMENT it seems, didnt really give much back. Not even across the board stipend increase for example for the little guy land owners. We Pay you a lot to Belong and Own land. Enough. After 15 years, we deserve more not less and invasion of our privacy like This is not going to fly. Its a GOPish bs move.

Richard Reynolds

Yep it sucks... and 99% of the people threatening to quit SL aren't making a living at the game. But that's how it is. This game has made how many millionaires?

sirhc desantis

Well. it doesn't quite make it as the biggest announcement cockup in Lab history (at least they had rapid esponse possibly sensible people standing by over at the forum to labslain it to the howling) but it ranks up there. Timing could have been better - 00:01 on the 4th would have scored them extra points.

But yep why not move to sanzar to escape the labz evil clutches - that'll learn em

Pulsar

The news have been welcomed with confusion, panic, and someone who thinks it's not a big deal.
Surely there are laws and regulations, and maybe many merchants won't mind too much to give out their IDs, social security number and documents to cash-out their L$.

However, the context of Second Life is a little peculiar. Due to the nature of Second Life, where you could virtually try and experience anything more or less anonymously, and you could do, and have seen things that you polite people wouldn't believe, maybe not everyone would be entirely happy to have their real life identity verified and linked to their SL avatars with 100% accuracy. Even less when it's not just Linden Lab but something at government level.
Furthermore, maybe you can't trust Linden Lab and their Tilia so much to handle your SSN or any equivalent info, when even big companies have been breached and their data downloaded.
On the other hand, you may think that for a while there was an age verification procedure in SL, in order to access to adult areas. That one involved document scans to be sent to LL. Of course kids sent their parents' info and other people may have used other tricks to fool the system, avoiding to give out their actual info. In the current case, however, it may be a tad more serious than to fool the age verification of a random company on the Internet, that cares just the necessary to cover their arses.

So it's likely that even this time the sky won't fall, the SLapocalypse won't happen, merchants won't close en masse, maybe most people won't even notice, but someone will do. How anyone would deal with this it's subjective, but perhaps it won't be so comfortable to any LGTB SL merchant too who didn't come out in real life already.

Trin

They required the same info before for cashing out, they added the SSN requirement because it's technically a financial institution, so people need to stop panicing just because LL is doing a good thing and adding some consumer protection to it's services.

Nolan Perry

I suggest you all Move to OpenSimulator, the Open Source Second Life

neverworldgrid.com is pretty good

Amanda

The privacy concerns are very real (in a day when even secure systems like Google and Facebook are hacked) but of equal concern in the plan to charge a monthly fee if you don't go online for 12 months! They will make all your alts declare a bank account or PayPal and charge a monthly fee to it if you (like myself and MANY others) have occasional alts who don't buy or sell and hardly ever log on.

Jan

I see so many people saying that it's time to move to Sanzar. Seriously? You're talking of moving to a VR world owned by the exact same company that owns SL.. again seriously? What makes one think that the same requirements would not be required with the spinoff of SL owned by LL? If it will be required in one then I'm fairly certain that it'll also be required in the other. Anyway, eitherway maybe for those of us that do not make a living through second life like I'm sure is the case in lots threatening to leave then by all means, move over to the sister company. Perhaps it will reduce lag for those of us still there.

That being said, it comes as no surprise. For those who do need to cash out regularly I feel sorry for them having to give this personal information or not be able to cash out. But this is just another money laundering scheme to get out of tax liability on LL's part. The community has made LL millions and obviously they want more. I hate that they will be doing this, but everything and everybody is about the all might dollar. I hate that some awesome creators will leave, but I suppose they too will just be replaced which is sad since it was they who made LL what it has grown to become today.

Adabelle

Nobody is moving to Sansar, not even the cockroaches.

"Content Creators are King" The minute LL decided to focus their syphons on the consumer market, as opposed to the land market, all of this was inevitable.

No need to move to Sansar, it's coming to us. Fees, please.

Rhoads

They don't care, they made their money. Myself, July will be my last month. I've had my ssn stolen twice from "trusted" sights. No more. Buh by Felicia.

Adeon Writer

Expected if any business that pays you money.

No more tax evasion or money laundering. I’m sure those types will be mad.

Surprise, no one wants you to anonymously make money.

Sumi Blackrain

If Tilia is located in UK, Why do they NEED my Social Security number? I don't feel comfortable with this at all!

Soda Sullivan

Has there ever been an actual instance of anyone caught laundering money via Second Life? It is a reason given over and over again for all this. Exactly when and where was a drug king pin or terrorist organization found to have been using lindens to launder their ill gotten gains? There are just 100 easier ways to do it. And if their have been no actual recorded occurrences, then a foreign entity requiring all my personal data seems kind of "fishy" and far more suspect and far more of a threat than imagined money laundering scheme.

Raz

Frankly, the communications around this have been atrocious. You must register with Tilia to continue with Second Life after Aug 1, but they will automatically create an account for you? It's only for cashing out Lindens for USD, but I never cash anything out, so why do I need this account? If your account is inactive for a year, you'll be charged a fee, but I have never cashed out anything, so does that make my account destined for becoming inactive if I continue to never cash out? What a mess.

JohnC

Of course it will not be that big of a deal. The world will not end and most will do as they are told. Although each time LL do something like this they do loose significant amounts of people. But now they have Sansar that does not bother them so much.
I have not cashed any money out since they asked me to sign to do so some years back, even though I could have easily done so.
I had 4 sims back then. They banned my avatar, in the wink of an eye, and over ten years and many thousands of dollars worth of inventory went with it. But I expected that.
I think though, for me, each time I hear this sort of thing, it is just a great shame to gradually witness the end of of something. Maybe it is only really an imagined thing, a feeling, that the weird and wonderful, wild west, last frontier of virtual worlds, is finally putting up the fences, moving in the sheriffs to clean up the towns, becoming respectable. I stick around because of a nostalgic memory of the good old bad old days. But the SL that fired me up and inspired me so much back in 2004 is long gone. And there is no alternative. Please don't mention Open Sim, it never was or will be SL.

Adeon Writer

@Soda Sullivan: Okay, I need to be honest. Money Laundering? Not really. but Tax evasion? Absolutely. I know people who dump into SL around tax time and withdraw later. I turn my head, but it happens.

manga

The rational subhumans give for accepting slavery is quite funny.

Blaise Glendevon

Oh, good. The tax nuts showed up.

'Slavery.' As if there's an equivalence between paying taxes and owning humans like livestock. Fall off a bridge.

Scurvy Ragu

I DJ in SL now but i have to report my tips as income.. bye bye

Gene Maruszewski

long overdue

Daddio Dow

It's not about terrorism, as the blogger suggests, but about taxes.
Lot's of people do not report their SL income and the gvmt wants LL to clean that shit up.
You wanna be a tax pirate?
Go ahead and leave.
Parasites suck.

JohnC

Of course, it might be argued that throughout history it is in fact the tax collectors that have been the real parasites. But not of course in our enlightened golden age.

Alaizabell

Either most of you are new users or you guys are forgetting the days when you needed to verify your identity within SL itself via SSN.

Pulsar

As I said above, the context here is a little different than the previous times when we had to send our info and IDs to Linden Lab. You aren't just dealing with a company on the Net and their rules (like the adult verification procedure that was easy fooled and was eventually discontinued, by the way) or when in 2005 you still needed the credit card info, although SL no longer had a subscription free as far as I recall. These now are gov regulations. There are reasons for money transfer, except due to the more or less anonymous nature of SL, not everyone is so happy to be so well identified and linked to their SL activities. For someone isn't a big deal, but for someone else it is (even if they aren't doing anything illegal).

If was it possible to make the Tilia account not directly linked to any avatar, but something you manage (and maybe others too could send you L$ to you there), that would be a different thing. Something the police could still investigate and find out if needed; not something that Linden Lab happens to be breached, the database dumped, and anyone all over the world can know who everyone is among the SL merchants.

Joey1058

"...Your basis? Mine:
https://www.fincen.gov/sites/default/files/2019-05/FinCEN%20CVC%20Guidance%20FINAL.pdf

Posted by: Bet | Tuesday, July 02, 2019 at 08:42 PM"

I totally agree that this is established by FinCEN. Sadly, FinCEN was something that grew out of the Patriot Act like the rest of it's cancerous offshoots.

Landa Crystal

I don't get it. Why do people think that moving to Sansar is the solution? And if both companies are owned by the same people, my true question is why are they doing this in SL and not in Sansar, or are they?

Chic Aeon

I haven't logged into Sansar in a few months, but money transfers to Paypal go through Tilia. Like SL, Sansar users have not yet had to OK the Tilia TOS (which if anyone has read it makes the SL August 2013 TOS look friendly).


I closed my Sansar store two days ago and converted my Sansar dollars to US and then cashed those out to Paypal. I still did not have to OK the Tilia TOS and PRIVACY POLICY which will (so far) be required from every single avatar logging into SL come August 1. I will say that my money (not much) came at the end of the day in lickety split fashion.

It is probably important to note that I was one of the top people cashing out; there aren't many creators taking money out of Sansar so it is more likely that after August 1st those sending money OUT of Sansar will need to OPT IN to the Tilia TOS. THIS IS WHAT MANY OF US ARE CALLING FOR IN SL. Why should everyone get a Tilia account automatically when less than 95% (my guess, not official) of avatars USE the company. So far that question of over a week ago has not been answered on the official Tilia FAQ thread.

For those that are interested the main thread for this on the SL forums is called "Tilia Takes Over" and you should be able to find it fairly easily :D.

While very few people have mentioned leaving SL, a good number of stores with small cash out histories (those under $600 US) who had not been through the verification process are closing their shops. Personally, unless LL changes their plans, I will no longer be sending money out of Second Life. I will keep my store and try to figure out something interesting and creative to do with all the dollars that won't make it to my RL bank.


And to the person that asked about lawsuits if personal information gets stolen from Tilia, the Tilia TOS (that you will need to "agree with" in order to log in in August) has you accepting ARBITRATION only with a minimum fee of over $900 US.

Chic Aeon

Here is a bit of NEWS. Not only are questions NOT being answered on the Tilia FAQ post (official) on the forums, QUESTIONS are being deleted. Not answers by other citizens or chatter that shouldn't be on a questions only thread -- but long, complex and important questions.


I went to the "Tilia Takes Over" thread this early morn to find that a very thoughtful, well written and long post with questions about Tilia had been deleted. I had linked to that FAQ post and others apparently had too (or perhaps some others from that thread) as there was a list of error messages in place of the forum posts we had linked to.

Happily, knowing that posts had been being deleted a lot lately (plenty of chatter and complaints) I had a full text copy of the long post as well as a screenshot of my questions echoing her questions (some had already been echoed a lot and still not answered).

It is getting VERY messy over there. Honestly the messiest I have ever seen so far as LL intervention.

My blog isn't political and I am giving The Lab the benefit of the doubt (well not so much really) and seeing what happens at the Town Hall before it once AGAIN becomes political. It's been six years since the infamous TOS of August 2013, but I still know how to report the news :D.

And to Hamlet -- one prominent post that was deleted was by Jeweliette Darkfold

Jeweliette Darkfold

I found my way here via forums message from Chic Aeon (Thank you Chic) and since I've found her comment here I will go ahead and paste here, my original post that was deleted from the official Q&A Thread. (again thank you Chic for saving a copy and sending it to me :) )

(My inital post was about the automatic accounts, in which I referenced the Wells Fargo accounts debacle. I'm not sure if my first post is still there or not but just wanted to give a basic explanation here for reference.)

*Deleted Post*

You have not answered my question as of yet, which is making me be more specific and ask more questions.

I understand that only people cashing out will have to provide the info you've mentioned. I understand that everyone has to agree to the Tilia terms so please don't misunderstand I am NOT asking about those topics.

However I am specifically concerned about the mandatory opening of "accounts" that will happen automatically for every user who agrees to the Tilia TOS. The reason I am asking is because I already went through something similar with Wells Fargo, as I touched on just a bit in my previous post. My concern is because financial accounts like this seems to be shaping up to be, (like for cell phone accounts or utilities, and some others that do not require your Social Security Number, but do have your name and address) often appear on someone's credit report. I want to know if everyone will truly have an account opened automatically or just those cashing out.

I also want to know if everyone having to have this account will now require our names and addresses for said accounts, the other information is clearly needed for those cashing out so I GET that part but you've not been specific enough about the mandatory accounts required for every avatar. I will not be staying in SL if I am forced to have some random game account that could appear on my credit report, or that will become something like the Wells Fargo fiasco. Here's a few reasons why:

1. Could appear on credit report (unknown at this time?)

2. I believe it is misuse of your power to basically force users to have these financial accounts that YOU open in peoples names if they will not be using your credit processing (bank like) services.

3. I don't care how encrypted your "secure" servers are, everything is hackable and your security measures can never guarantee complete security of my information (NOBODY in the RL world or game world can). You already have my name, address and credit card number because I buy lindens frequently - so no offense, but I don't trust ANY internet based company's security. Only idiots would completely trust that any site is completely safe and always will be, so your blanket response about your "secure" servers is just basic "don't worry we're safe we promise" nonsense that you and every company puts out there to ease minds. IF this account is to be a financial / bank type account, then I will NOT be staying here if forced to have it even though I will never be using it because I never cash out, and it is UNNECESSARY for my use of SL, and I do NOT want a "bank" like account created in my name just because I use SL (even though I will never cash out). It is unethical of you to force those not ever using it for cash outs to have them IF it is to be this type of account, period.

4. You have yet to clarify exactly what type of "account" this will actually be. Please elaborate. For example, I play another game which has an "account" that sort of manages or is the overall game account for all of my characters that I play that game on. On that game, I can purchase game time with my credit card, or purchase extras for the game. It is more like an overall account that serves ALL of my game characters, BUT it is not an account in which feels like a "bank" account. On this example account I do not take game coin and turn it into cash (To my knowledge that is not an option for that game, otherwise I'd be having the same talk with them), so I never have to worry about it appearing on a credit report, or worry about fees for inactivity etc.

I think the generic way you have described your new "automatically created accounts" is part of why people are concerned. Because we know that these accounts are connected with cash outs in which you require more personal information, (again which I understand in regard to cash outs why the need for that info is there) but because you are requiring EVERY avatar to have one and it seems to be the same type of potential "banking" sort of account - to be used for those doing cash outs AND for those not using it for that service. This is why I believe it makes your members fearful because it seems like an account which as I mentioned, could potentially appear on a credit report or seems like a financial / bank account and there is no second password or other login security measure. THIS is why people are concerned. You NEED to explain the mandatory accounts better and in more plain terms please and thank you.

Also, this doesn't apply to me at all because I'm way over 18, but I was reading the Tilia TOS, and something I think you should be aware of is that the Tilia TOS states that users have to be 18 to use the Tilia services. So, wouldn't forcing every avatar to have a Tilia account make those under 18 who already play SL and have already been ok under the SL TOS break their Tilia TOS the moment they agree to it, because you are forcing every avatar to have an automatically created account, that YOU are creating? If these mandatory accounts are Tilia accounts and you must be 18 to use it, anyone under that age risks losing their SL accounts because you will be forcing them to break Tilia TOS by forcing the mandatory account upon them yes?

I also read that you can close your Tilia account at any time, so what happens if we do that? If we can close it at any time do we lose access to our SL accounts? If we can close them at any time, then WHY are you creating these accounts automatically for every avatar, seems like a LOT of work and again very unethical if this is the case. If we don't want a Tilia account, and have no use for it, we can turn around and close it the same day we agree to the Tilia TOS correct? Or will we be breaking the SL TOS by closing out Tilia accounts created by you for us, under duress?

THIS lack of complete information, mixed with half explained terms, contradictory information, is WHY people are frustrated and concerned. Please elaborate. Thank You.

*end deleted post*

I've posted a post town hall post at the official forum but made a copy this time, because I do still have a couple of questions. However, I do believe they've changed their tune a bit and I'm hoping for a reply this time rather than another deleted post.

Lola

I don't cash out my lindens so hopefully this doesn't apply to me. Every linden I make goes back into the game.. This is bullshit, definitely a democratic move to take money from people.

Luther

One of the top requirements to prevent ID theft is to NEVER give your Social Security number along with your birth date. That database that will hold your info will eventually be hacked and the data sold. DO NOT ever give your SSI number.

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