« Cajsa's Flickr Find: Mr. Godard Makes Second Life Screenshots Look Like Old Real Life Photos | Main | Wall Street Journal Features Sinespace's Breakroom in Story on Virtual World Offices for Remote Teams »

Wednesday, May 27, 2020

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Taylor

It's primarily the funding model that gets people so up in arms, I think. Look at all the controversies we've seen over the past decade about games with microtransactions -- then multiply that by a lot, because in Star Citizen they're more like macrotransactions.

By directly selling endgame ships that, from what CIG has said, will take an extremely long time (hundreds or even thousands of hours) to earn in-game, Star Citizen is inevitably going to end up with a huge, huge, huuuuuge pay-to-win problem the likes of which I don't think we've ever seen before. It's something a lot of backers, myself included, are really worried about (even though you often can't hear us over the superfans). I very much don't want the game to fail, but I also want people to be able to have a fun time without having to spend hundreds of dollars... and at this point I'm not sure they will.

Lex4art

Well, I've played in "Star Citizen" around 12 hours this week. Feels like "SineSpace/Sansar got 260M+ dollars" - a lot of awesome designed content, but there is nothing to do beside walking and this is a problem IMHO. Inside cities/stations you can't spawn an object/light source/particle effect, you can't move anything (non of the world objects has physics, everything completely solid)... So, it's only about doing procedurally generated space shooting/mining missions and spending money in the kiosks around cities/stations. Feels dead for year 2010+ era, you can't kickstart a MMO with that. And there is no learning curve - I've stumbled a lot on trivial things, like "can't leave apartments area because didn't know that elevator UI supports scrolling" (destination point "lobby" is hidden at the bottom). Why even 3.9 release didn't have a video tutorial inside initial spawn point rooms? Something like that saves a lot of nerves/ragequits (myself included): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGQKd0FCgJU

On the bright side of the things seamless world is awesome (got nice feelings doing my first flight from planet surface... wow!), starship & weapons details are impressive, locations have rich & professional design ... it's probably worth 45$ just to see that stuff, even there is no game.

Here are screenshots of my misadventures XD: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1PrZvT-pBauV9DwiCaIuveuxOYbRtfxJD

P.S. Their single-player campaign "Squadron 42" probably will be a good game, but as MMO creators CIG are "nope", "Star Citizen" is full of obvious problems and like "Sansar" or "Sine Space" there is a pattern - if creators of those project didn't see obvious problems for years - there is no hope for those projects ...

Somedude2@0

@Taylor.

There are no end game ships that they're selling because there is no defined end game. What your goal in SC is different from my goal which is different from that guy's goal. Are they selling bigger ships? Yes. But in order to operate those bigger ships with any sort of effectiveness, you need a crew (either human or AI), plus all the operating expenses like fuel, food, etc, all make soloing those ships impossible so yeah, you can buy yourself an Orion or Idris, but unless you actually have the money in game to use it, it's a waste.

The allure of Star Citizen (at least for me) is the fact you are just a guy in the universe. You're not the hero, or the Dragonborn or savior of the universe. You are merely a guy making his way in the verse. Now that may mean you want to pursue a life of crime or bounty hunting or being a humble Miner or cargo hauler, or working your way up to have your own manufacturing empire. The point is, the choice is yours, and your skill will determine how good you are at it, not how much money you plop down on ships

Vertisce

The detractors and FUD spreaders don't understand that the release dates were missed because the game now has the awesome massive scope.

If Squadron 42 had released in 2015 or 2016 it would have been shit, and same for Star Citizen. They are making history with groundbreaking never seen before technology and that takes time.

LOLOLOLOL

This article is *still* full of shit. Why don't you do some research before spouting off bullshit and misleading your readers? Start with the Star Criticism channel on YouTube, follow up on the research, and THEN publish a third article where you apologize to your readers. Star Citizen is clearly and obviously a scam, regardless of what your dipshit friend thinks.

Joe Blobers

CIG making two AAAA games and release major update every quearter.

Trolls spitting prophecy of doom since 2015 while funding and progress increase year after year.

All you need is $45 for basic package to enjoy development. Pay more if you want to support Chris Roberts doing something no other game have done, or go play COD cookie-cutter games.

CIG start with 12 guys and now up to 500+ employees. Since Kickstarter we now have 3 planets and a bunch of moons. Keeps getting better all the time!

ForbesWasRight

Have you read the Forbes investigative journalism article that they published in their print magazine?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattperez/2019/05/01/exclusive-the-saga-of-star-citizen-a-video-game-that-raised-300-millionbut-may-never-be-ready-to-play

Wagner James Au

Yeah, the Forbes story reports that there are huge delays and major cost overruns -- not totally unlike what has happened to many other games that have turned out to be hits. And that many players are angry that they've put up a lot of money and the game isn't playable yet. Which is understandable -- but shouldn't they be the ones who most want this game to finally succeed?

So again, the death wish brigade remains a mystery to me.

Obey-the-Fist

Fervently wanting something to succeed when it's clearly not - especially due to the amount of money pumped into it - there's a term for that isn't there?

Guy

Pretty funny to have an "MMO" with max 50 players per instance after 7 - 8 years of development. Also pretty funny to have a convention every year for a game in "alpha". Equally hilarious to sell cosmetic DLC for an "alpha", with a very, very well developed e-commerce platform. The store is probably the best developed part of the project.

Bootcha

I think you're asking the wrong questions about the project, sir. You see Star Citizen as merely a notable project of notable ambition. That's not much of an analysis. What are the definitions of these milestones you attribute to progress? How do they compare to not just the immediate industry but production-based economics as a whole? Your musings have opinions, but they sorely lack data or critical analysis. You take your friend May's opinion at face value, and while an anecdotal reference point has some worth, that's his observation and not yours. You take his opinion as wholly yours without batting an eye, or at least you are failing to express an opinion distinct from his.

To get to any truth, as you're purporting to do, you're going to have to dig into the subject.

However, having spent 4 years doing exactly that, I warn you it's a hell of a rabbit hole and very easy to get lost in the weeds. But there is one constant no matter where you look after digging even a little: There's a lot of smoke. And where there's smoke...

Alberto P Martinez

It's the biggest game ever at this point both in scope and cost..there always people that want to watch things fail..they get some sick sort of satisfaction from this. There are people who want Space X to Fail to..why? Who knows move along and enjoy life..not everyone be needs to agree with your op ,some people can't live with that concept. We live Ina world w anti vaxxers and flat earthers..why are you even surprised?

Amr Abouelleil

Also, lookup Derek Smart. He stoked and perhaps still stokes lots of anti SC sentiment.

Stuart Little

Derek smart is still the ever persistent SC boogeyman huh? I guess every cult needs an effigy to burn.

Brubble

You can only shoehorn in so much on top of a disastrously messy spaghetti code and hope for it to function. CIG has built a flashy roof before the foundation all for the purpose of pandering a dream to people who then fill in the gaps with nonexistent theory crafting, which in turn produces hype which translates to money. CR has mastered this marketing scheme much like others before it. "Theranos" for just one example. Hes selling jpegs and land claims etc etc etc that dont exist, ship jpegs that have been promised for almost as long as its been in development that most likely will never see the light of day. Its really endless when you look into all its facets.

SC has hit the tech wall of limitations in part due to the ridiculous way the assets are constructed, they kill server performance to a crawl. Actual real life developers and tech experts (and no not the all too common basement BS CEO/developer etc) established people in these fields have explained these fundamental flaws in much detail. Even by a strictly tech standpoint it currently CAN NOT BE DONE as CR claims it can. The tech to do what he wants does not exist. Other major players with billions at their disposal and the top people in the tech industry have tried and failed to do what CR is claiming to be able to do "sson" of course ....and people think CR?! CR the Incompetent can pull it off as along as they throw more and more and more money at it? Hes been out of the game dev industry for almost 20 years. CR started out with honourable intensions bu t his mouth and the influx of money has sunk him right up to his nose in promises and a project that is impossible to deliver and based entirely on facts will be for the long foreseeable future due to the lack of revolutionary tech and overall incompetence of its leadership. I love to see its work out for all but its delusional at this point in time. Its all laughable.

Wagner James Au

"Your musings have opinions, but they sorely lack data or critical analysis. You take your friend May's opinion at face value"

Not just May -- actually my ears perked up again last year when the head of innovation at a Fortune 500 company started raving to me about how much he loved and has invested in Star Citizen. And more recently, I found out another colleague, a very well-admired MMO designer and developer who could easily go elsewhere to work -- and definitely somewhere with way less player drama -- is now working at CIG. These are serious folks who know games and very much know the risks inherent in a crowdfunded game, but remain enthusiastic. And then I weigh that against a brigade of dedicated haters who are dead sure I'm getting personally paid by Chris Roberts, and I just have to wonder what the actual fuck.

On the other side, I will say the idea that Derek Smart is fueling the hate seems pretty wild. If Shigeru Miyamoto himself came to me and went into a foul-mouthed rant about how Star Citizen was the worst thing in the world for all humanity, I'd say "Well that's an interesting opinion, Shigeru" and go on with my life.

See, it's an interesting story!

Bootcha

There have been very few people who have been financially invested in the Star Citizen project (I would know, I was one, I'm in the now-conspicuously-missing picture of "The Pledge" with Roberts and everyone back in 2012.). Everyone else is just a customer. Emotionally invested is a different matter. We are certainly witnessing a different brand of futurism. The game-ification of crowdfunding, as described by Roberts, if you will.

I don't question that the possibilities dreamt by the Star Citizen project are exciting, and no doubt they would be appealing to a customer or potential designer hire looking to do something new. However, I would wonder what the reaction of a programmer or engineer friend would be if you asked them about the project's technical needs. Nearly all of them give the same chuckle, the one where they're thankful they're not on the hook to deliver such massive needs. We of course have that one friend who is brilliant enough to try on the condition they're in charge of every little detail, or unwise enough to try for the sake of showing off.

The dialogue of either someone proselytizing for the project or condemning it to burn is only tangentially interesting, like watching two grackles fight over a piece of bread on the sidewalk. And if you want to study that in a sociological framework, I'm all for that. But if that's not your intent, what squabbles the fans and critics have distracts from the stranger situation of a company run by a family and Hollywood acquaintances, all with questionable histories of success and business practices, selling off bits and pieces of that company to arguably the crankiest and most vindictive ex-media mogul, all while the product of both side's concerns constantly faces years of technical delays and even media "editorial issue" problems that create an inconsistent narrative of what work is being done, during a reported funding explosion entering unprecedented territory.

Now, THAT'S an interesting story.

CronoCloud Creeggan

I think Chris Roberts made the mistake of believing in his own self aggrandization by himself and his fans. He forgets we live in a world where No Man's Sky and Elite Dangerous already exist. He's a "PC Master Race" jerk who refuses to see that we live in a multi-platform world.

rePool

Hi we on the hate sub are the hate sub because we are unable to come back to reality it is as simple as that, and because we more or less are more occupied with what is happening in the SC community then the actual game and cry about that more in general, and have no ideer what the burden of prof concept means, also SC is a scam because we got our feelings hurt by a game. We also celebrated our 5000 member on the hate sub even though only 60-70 people are active..

G.

Sunk cost fallacy comes to mind.

Prototyping and development started in 2010, meaning it's been a decade and no clear end date is in sight. Every release date has been missed and more than that this is one of the most funded games in history. This shows either Chronic project mismanagement at the least.

This is not to mention the dubious marketing strategy, that could be illegal in certain countries.

Sadly this is just another cautionary tale of the perils of Kickstarter and crowdfunding.

nighttrain123

The subtext of this article is that the game itself is too bad or too uninteresting to talk about or play. Instead the heretics must be purged!

ProJavaOrlovsky

As professional software developer i highly doubt that CIG is capable to realease squadron42 and final release of star citizen.
There to many feature still to complete they understuff, eve now in Frankfurt they look for developers, this game people 8 years in dev hell, if i would work at CIG i would tell to manager go fu*k yourself we cutting features and polish the game that it does not crash.

lol

Ask yourself this: Why do gamers want Epic Games Store to fail? Or EA? Or Activision Blizzard?

Could it be the poor business practices? Or perhaps the abusive, predatory marketing?

No, it's a religious thing. People just love to hate hard working game developers. That must be it, no other explanation is possible. None.

Mr. Seeker

I have to say that I almost invested back when it was still on Kickstarter. I am glad I did not. One of the reasons was that quickly in, they started losing their "grand" ideas for something that was impossible. With what they originally said, and originally backed, that was the scope they should start off with. That was the scope that they could do, right? They said that they could do X amount of planet, X amount of things, and the scope creep went higher and higher, until the moment things just blew out of proportion.

Just question yourself: If they slapped a 1.0 version on it and immediately abandoned it, would you still buy the game? Not thinking the "hundreds of hours" you have been put in, but look from a fresh perspective. Is it a dumpster fire or a game you would promote to your friends? I certainly would not, to be honest. It is still on a broken build of an Epic Engine, lacks a lot of features, and for an AAA-game it has less content than Destiny!

I see a lot of ranting here about "future" events, but what about the now? What can they show after 8 years of development? How great is the game compared to other games? What does the game lack? What do you like to see but never actually see?

The last "leaks" made me seriously laugh, since I saw battlefield2 in some sort of star wars type system with a lot of bugs. Is that what the game is evolving into? I heard a lot of 100+ starsystems back at Gamescom, I am still waiting for them. Where is the content?

I am not a hater, I am just disappointed to see how the game is burning money like an endless pit. If I ever invest so much on a game, what would be the consequence if it suddenly burned up in smoke? Would you be happy about it? Would you actually say "I am going on with my life?" or would you actually commit suicide or be depressed? Just think of it, and ask yourself the question: "Am I a gaming addict?"

Kevin

I backed the game in 2012 and have upped my pledge a couple times (by $10-$20) and am just in it for the ride. If it fails it fails but I hope it doesn't. The vitriol that comes from some people is astonishing though, there's plenty of games and a couple devs I really don't like but I don't jump every time I see an article on it/them just so I can spew hate. While we're still a ways away I usually pop in every update just to see what's going on and it's always amazing to see. People are allowed to do whatever they want with their own money, if they want to *pledge* money just for the *possibility* to get half of what SC could be let em.

Trevylove

Even, if you had written a small comment behind a bench in the middle of the sea. There are people who actively search, for it seems like they get paid for it. For some reason, they also are concerned about the backers, and yet not many of them go ask a WOW player why he pays a subscription fee yearly. Or why Fortnight, FIFA, and other game players spend so much. Then they speak of game addicts, and all manner of judgemental tells that make no sense. They try to be so passionate and tell stories how they once were backers, and they never were, or they were thinking of backing, which they never did. The same exact comments over and over, so quite frankly, I think they embody the definition of crazy.

You don't like it stop following it. Right at this moment, people are experiencing a much more fleshed-out version of the final dream. I joined when you only had a hangar and a few locations and no planets to land on. If what CIG is doing was regular stuff, it would have already been done. So I don't care when people try to compare the development time to other single small area maps. Until another massive project releases at this scale and ambition, I could care less what they think. I am a former WOW player, and by investing the same subscription of 15 bucks per month in small increments I have had hours and hours of fun. Years and years of memorable experiences, and made tonnes of tonnes of professional like-minded people. I have had times of frustrations, but I clearly remember the WOW Reddit and forums being exactly the same. So this is nothing new to me, and as one backer said to me the day I signed up. "Welcome to the Verse! It will build you up, and it will make you cry, but one thing is for sure those memories will never die."

Wagner James Au

"Why do gamers want Epic Games Store to fail? Or EA? Or Activision Blizzard?"

That's an interesting comparison. I did a search and found an anti-Electronic Arts subreddit. It has... all of 16 subscribers. Even though EA has customers in the tens of millions.

One of Star Citizen's hate subreddits has... nearly 6,000 subscribers. Even though Star Citizen has customers in the low-mid six figures.

Rotpfeffer

Maybe you should look at the subreddit that is highly critical against Shroud of the Avatar instead. It was a crowdfunded game that had crossover marketing with Star Citizen and also had another big name from the old Origin days attached to it.

Wagner James Au

What, the one with like 600 subscribers? That also seems strange because Lord British is probably as well known as Roberts if not more so and also prone to over-promising. But still, way less hate!

Rotpfeffer

Not less hate, just a vastly smaller audience.

Digging into it, the vitriol doesn't surprise me. When big dreams are promised and the deadlines/deliverables get delayed or pushed to the wayside, people reach a limit.

Not all people, of course.

But the total number of people who become disenchanted doesn't seem to decrease because of attrition. The longer a project goes on without becoming finalized, the more people will reach their personal limits.

For some, it's when CIG deviated from the original scope. For others, it's the delays. Some see the ship sales as a variant of P2W. Some older backers felt burned when 3.0 missed its deadline and scope, and was delivered with a "no more refinds" stance. More recent "big ticket" backers have sold off their assets because of things removed from the roadmap, goals kicked down the line, and bugs that have not been addressed for years.

While this attrition is endemic to both Star Citizen and Shroud of the Avatar, they aren't the only projects to suffer from this. Chronicles of Elyria also did a wonderful job of accepting funding and delivering nothing, right up until the end without warning.

Rotpfeffer

https://steamcharts.com/app/326160

Actually, there may be more hate for Shroud of the Avatar, proportionally speaking, given their active player count. But the reasons seem to be in line with why people have given up or turned on Star Citizen - delays, over-promising, and under-delivering.

Just on a smaller monetary scale.

Taylor

"That's an interesting comparison. I did a search and found an anti-Electronic Arts subreddit. It has... all of 16 subscribers. Even though EA has customers in the tens of millions.

One of Star Citizen's hate subreddits has... nearly 6,000 subscribers. Even though Star Citizen has customers in the low-mid six figures."

Maybe that's because you can criticize EA on any EA game's subreddit (or any breddit period, really) and the vast majority of people will be on board. Nobody's a fanboy for EA. But if you criticize Star Citizen on r/starcitizen -- you'll get downvoted to oblivion in the blink of an eye. There's no room for criticism unless it's extremely minor and couched in Chris Roberts-worship. It's absolutely cult-like and really kind of disgusting. Mind you- I don't like how toxic the anti-Star Citizen subreddits are, either. I don't want to go there either. This is actually the first place I've made any public comments about Star Citizen in years.

And look, I backed Star Citizen during the original Kickstarter. Between 2012 and 2016 I contributed over *$3,500* because I have the money to spare and desperately want to see a good space sim in a time where we barely see any. I want this project to succeed. I really do. If I didn't, I wouldn't have voted with my wallet.

But over the years, as deadline after deadline is missed and goalpost after goalpost gets moved, I've become more and more concerned with the game's progress. It seems like CIG has become stuck in a loop: they need to keep raising money to keep funding development, so they prioritize creating and selling more new ships over other content. And new is the key word there, because they haven't even finished a lot of old ships -- one of the most notorious examples is the Banu Merchantman, first sold for $250 in 2013... which hasn't even left the concept phase!

Carlos Loff

Why so many ? Maybe because so many were betrayed... Maybe because some backers already died of old... Maybe because many of them were so excited that poured quite a bit of money, expecting 6/7 years tops and IS QUITE MORE THAN THAT NOW - Maybe because they managed to disappoint SO MANY ? Why would it be if not by that ???

Nemo

[Nazis saying cool, can't understand why people tries so hard to hate us]

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Your Information

(Name is required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)

Wagner James Au
Breakroom virtual meetings conferences-GIF
Sinespace virtual world Unity free home
Ample Avi  SL avatars
Tableau_SL_Nylon_pinkney
Click to visit Nylon Pinkey's many fashion brands in Second Life: Nylon Outfitters, Golden Years, Wrigglesworth Residence, Yummy, and Art Nails
my site ... ... ...