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Tuesday, June 09, 2020

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David Cartier

There are many cultures where things we find offensive, aren't. In banning those symbols, words, ideas we are just engaging in another form of racism, against THOSE people. We exclude much art, thought and ideas wrongly. History is painful, true, and yet we must learn to live with and numb that pain. Virtually all of the bigotry and discrimination I've faced in my almost 60 years has come from African-Americans, yet they always seem to get a pass on the virulent homophobia and anti-semitism which is so endemic in Black American society. And yet I don't hate them.

Adeon Writer

@David Cartier

American owned game, American rules. Feel free to make your own game where things Americans perceive as racist are allowed. But it won't be allowed in Second Life. If you have an issue with that, my recommendation is you cope.

Nebulosus

Wow, David Cartier, can your head get ANY further up your own ass?

Jake Vordun

@David Cartier

Am I really reading what I think I'm reading in your comment? Wow.

Sheree Honeyflower

I am supportive of removing hate term from Second Life's marketplace. This isn't a simple matter of different cultures but removing elements whose only goal is to create hatred, division and eventually, acts of genocide.

Never again!

Cake

@David Cartier:

Hello. I'm the person who started the movement to request slurs be removed from Marketplace. I am also a black user. Please allow me to address your points.

1. Yes, the black community does have a problem with sexism and homophobia. Transphobia as well. It's weird that while we've contributed a lot to feminism and queer history (a trans black woman was one of the OGs of the Stonewall Riots, Marsha P. Johnson!), we still discriminate in that way. What you should understand, though, is that we as a people are not a monolith and we are still having this conversation with ourselves to get rid of that hate. Just like the rest of society, it takes work. That's work that I, a genderfluid black person, would love to see happen.

2. Art is just like any other form of speech. Sure, you can -make- the work, but you're also free to be shown the door if what you create is based on hate against others. Art doesn't get a free pass from consequences just because it's art. I would certainly know as I illustrate comic books professionally for a living! In playing this game, we all inhabit Linden Lab's house. If they change their house rules, it's still their property--no matter if we're paying a cover charge to come over or not.

3. There is no pass in life against bigotry. Have you tried pointing out whoever is hateful towards you that while it may not be racism what they practice (which is an ingrained system), it's still bigotry and hate by definition?

4. By the way--antisemitism is actually racism if a black person practices this, because in America people tried to keep Jewish folks down with discrimination as well. That discrimination is still present in our system. So yes, that counts as racism too.

I wish you luck on your journey in eliminating hate from your life. Please be well.

--Cake

Cake

Including this also for anyone curious since I made this point, based on earlier replies:

"What is the difference between bigotry, racism, etc?"

Racism is an ingrained system of hate that is designed to keep one group of people down while another benefit. Think of Jim Crow and that's how it works. It can also be more minuscule, and filter down until it's a bias in people's heads that reinforce the overall scheme.

Prejudice/bias is a predetermined notion you have about another group of people. This group of people tend to steal more, that group of people can't dance well, etc. It influences your decisions before you even meet someone and get to know them.

Bigotry is what fuels racism, but it's also hate in general. For example: a black person who refuses to talk to white people at all, is a bigot. An Asian person who doesn't want black people living in their neighborhood is also being racist. A black person who thinks they'd get Coronavirus from eating Asian food is also being racist.

People of color can practice racism against each other, thereby reinforcing that system of hate that pervades in the country, because in the end it's keeping each -other- down. But even if the hate you practice isn't a part of the country's long-standing system of racism, it's still bigotry and is still bad.

There are no varying degrees of bad here, so you can't say "Well this person is a bigot but at least he isn't a racist", because that's just morally reprehensible either way.

Better Then Ezra

I recomend linden lab hire someone like cake to police inworld and make sure every sim owner is promoting the right type of diversity and if not then they should be banned. Its a privilege to own land in SL..including responsibilities of making sure no one is offended or emotionally hurt.

Shanuqie Shoelie

Denying the BLM outlook should be seen as someone denying the holocaust meaning they should be locked away with the key thrown away!

David Cartier

Nebulosus, your gutter-bred crudity aside, your comment would be fair, were I strictly or even loosely caucasian. Im hardly that. Don't be judging others by their lily-white avatars. My point was, are we to ban Native American Indian art, or Asian Indian art or ancient Greek and Persian art - or Tom of Finland, for that matter - just because it incorporates swastikas and other potentially offensive elements? Before we go and get offended by something, we should make sure the offense was, indeed, intended. Judging other cultures by our own moral standards is, as I pointed out, discrimination in itself.

Cake

I... don't think discrimination works the way you think it works.

Look, I know change is scary and a lot of people are having some big reactions right now because they don't know what's going to happen next. All that's honestly happening here, is slurs being banned from Marketplace. Second Life's TOS already allows people to report hateful behavior, so that isn't new. You were always able to report racist and harassing actions in the game.

But more than that... do you guys really want full ability for people to do and treat others however you want? There are places that exist like that on the internet right now (Voat, Tumblr), and people by and large consider those places to be garbage fires. Second Life is already defending its reputation as an aging game against other social worlds rising up and coming into competition against it. And those other worlds have younger users who cringe that the stuff that Second Life, frankly...is filled with.

Do you want SL to be a hate-filled dumpster fire? No? Then out the slurs from Marketplace go.

Pulsar

While it's true that swastika is an ancient, beautiful and positive symbol, it has been covered with repugnant sewer mud by Nazis. In Germany it's banned under criminal code to use swastikas in that way and they are totally right to do so, not only to outlaw Nazi symbols (as well as insignia, slogans, and everything about that), but it's also right because to keep associating the swastika to Nazis or making it a Nazi symbol is abhorrent.
What's outlawed is not the original culture, but Nazism, and indirectly, its cultural appropriation and abuse of those symbols and the offensive use - both offensive to the victims of Nazism and the original culture - in fact Germany doesn't ban the swastika in it's original use and in temples.

The words banned from the marketplace are in English. If these English words in the current English language have a derogatory meaning and they are racial slurs, then they are racial slurs. Racial slurs are hate and offensive content. It makes no sense to call different cultures into question or languages, arts and religious symbols... I want to give the benefit of doubt and think maybe it's just a fallacy, rather than a manipulative grasping at straws hoping to condone racial slurs (and at the same time adding whataboutism to point fingers at Afro-Americans).
And even if one of those words is used in a positive way *within* an ethnic group, that's a whole different story, a story that has nothing to do with slurs as keywords as they were used in the SL marketplace.

Justin

All the gibberish above masks the fact that LL just NOW thought it best to remove hate words from it's proprietary system.

We are about a quarter into the 21st century.

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