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Tuesday, February 01, 2022

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Terry

I am new to mesh, not SL. I am having so much trouble setting things up. The top two mash body makes, skin maker don't even offer youtube training. Group chats are a waste for support.
I have two degrees in RL, and even i struggle.
I just want to put on an AV, clothes and enjoy SL....like the old days where an AV was simple.
Now, like others, seem to spend more time working out how to make AV changes and a very small amount of time socialising in SL.
If the LL financial model is to retain customers, causing frustration in just the basics is a poor way to retain.

0xc0ffea

The mesh models aren't the problem, sure there are lots of triangles but it's 2022 and a modern GPU can throw those around in it's sleep.

The problem with SL's avatars is more nuanced.

Every rigged mesh (and one attachment can be several meshes), has to be animated individually every single frame. The only thing they share is the position of the bones after all the animations have been resolved.

This scales linearly, and is why SL grinds to a crawl in a crowd.

The more time each frame the CPU spends animating avatars, the less time it spends rezzing textures and the longer the GPU has to wait for the next frame to be drawn.

Games get around this by limiting the number of individual meshes that need animating and limiting the number of animations in play at any given moment. There are all kinds of tricks to allow avatar dress up that results in a single mesh at run time, see your local MMO for examples.

This is also why other virtual world platforms tend to have single mesh fully dressed avatars. These avatar would work in SL, however they run counter to the entire history of Second Life fashion, avatars and dress up.


As far as mesh bodies goes .. yes they are bad. But not for the reasons commonly cited. A mesh in SL can only have 8 faces (a hang up from prim days). If you want a mesh body that uses a HUD to "alpha out" sections to prevent clipping, then you need a new mesh for every 8 sections. Count up how many sections your body has, divide by 8, then multiply that number by how many onion layers you have. Tada! That's a lot of meshes that need to be independently animated each frame.

The fix is to switch to a body that ONLY uses BOM and does not provide a HUD to alpha out sections.

LL could extend objects to have a lot more than 8 faces, then we could have the best of both worlds.

There are lots of little changes like this that LL could make to remove legacy limitations, that in turn would mean creators aren't making a mess to get around those limitations.


Can Philip fix this? Oh hell no. He (like much of LL) do not use the product recreationally. Does not shop. Does not play dress up & has no idea what we've been up to the last 15 years.


His "name recognition and leadership caliber" will evaporate the moment he tries to lecture SL residents on avatars, him famously only having changed his twice ... the second make over wasn't even his own work.

Adeon Writer

Rather than repeat everything, I'll just say I agreed with everything 0xc0ffea said.

Thynka Little

I gave up on mesh avatars and wander around these days in my 2007 version. Much less frustrating!

Judas

Walk around secondlife in a default avatar and everone will ignore you.
People love the complex amazing avatars in secondlife, simplify them and they will be generic and dull.Yes they are complicated , yes they lag the place up but people accept it. Pretty and 3fps wins over ugly @60fps.
I do think LL should have created a mk2 avatar mk1 had flaws but also was designed with alot of understanding about what people might want. I also think its too late now for a mk2 now. The artists of sl have made their own solutions.People prefer the variety and as a result accept the complexity. But it sucks to be new in sl.

Dee

Wow, thanks for picking up all of my comment, it is nice to be heard sometimes. I just wanted to add in something that was in my original thought pattern but didnt post and that is an echo of what 0xc0ffea said - if there was EVER a time that LL could pull the teeth on this issue it is now. If the focus was to revamp the avatar where it *could* possibly work in the "larger metaverse" outside of SL because it is based on unity (or whatever) and following a larger product standard I think this could take some of the sting out of starting over for some people.

If LL would take a wider view, even if it was something unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future. And who knows, if they played their cards right and really worked out a cutting edge solution for beautiful avatars, in that beyond the foreseeable future other metaverse explorers might come so SL to get a smoking hot avatar in SL to take jetsetting into the larger metaverse! In fact, if they get ahead of this curve they might be able to go so far as to help set some standards that they can be on the cutting edge. It really is an opportunity that should not be wasted.

As I see it, looking at the metaverse hype all of the avatars of the systems I have seen so far a fugly af. LL might be able to tempt some of SL's larger fashionistas into buying in with an eye toward possible future monetary gains. Sure, catwa, and maitreya, et al, are going to whine and complain. But I have had my maitreya body for many years and have not bought another (and probably won't). Rather than looking at it as a "you are killing my business" project for them it is an opportunity to sell me something new in the form of the body blenders or whatever bits of the new avatar can be farmed out to the beauty experts.

I do not think you will find ANY clothing creator in SL who would not GLADLY put down the mundane task of having to make half a dozen of everything to fit all the current bodies - for the opportunity to make one single mesh for their clothing and have at it!

I really hope these posts can help get the ball rolling on the idea that we NEED better, easier to adjust and use and more performant for the system. Having all these different avatars meshes makes everything laggier than it needs to be. The fact that you have to have a special windlight setting to not see everyones neck crease is one of my personal peeves lol. I keep teleporting into events and finding everyone's head showing their face on the back for the first few minutes. Retch. That @#$ is just wrong LMAO.

One absolute MUST for a new system, ANY new system would be a global size slider. Where you can just say "my whole me just as I am, now scale me up or down" If someone has set themselves 8 feet tall but their avatar shape ratio is lovely - if you try to scale them down with the height everything goes out of proportion and has to be tinkered again.

Now is the time for a new avatar. Make it so the current system and the new can live side by side and people who are perfectly happy with their 10 year old Maitreya body and wardrobe can just keep doing what they are doing and all those fashionistas who live on the bleeding edge can jump on the new thing and make it their own. If LL does jump on a new avatar system, they MUST take a larger view of the avatar and keep their eyes on the metaverse horizon.

I think this is even more critical than just "oh it would be so much easier for us to dress ourselves" and could help bring SL back into the larger metaverse discussions. I keep reading all the latest hot news and if SL is brought up at all it is more of a footnote than a "hey you have to see this" discussion. LL needs to be shouting from the rooftop "bringing you the metaverse experience for 20 years now and perched to fly off into the great unknown." Sure, it would be hype for a few years yet, but most of the metaverse is at this point. The way to OWN it is to plan for it. Maybe I am just dreaming... but I really hope that there are some folks in LL who are thinking like I am!

And also, a "Never NFT" slogan might be useful. I am sick to death of hearing about NFTs. But then again, how else could SL items work in the larger metaverse someday? Now is the time to be figuring that stuff out and adding it into the business plan.

sirhc desantis

Well, have to agree with ser Adeon agreeing with ser 0xc0ffea (now theres a first).
Partner understands all this - sorry, I am too old a fart and took me until BOM to 'go mesh'. It has to be a real pita to start now. And this is me who has made derivatives of Ruth/Roth for fun.
Lab starter avs have improved so yes - go for a next step AND keep all the options for custom stuff. And ffs can we have attachment points that match the 'new' bento rig? Sick of having to re weight for a simple bit of jwelry (and gave up on every body variant - I just do for altamura and self made). Give me the ability to build off a single rigged root prim and I would be .. very happy

0xc0ffea

To add to what Dee said about avatars.

We don't need "starter avatars".

We need a socially acceptable open source mesh body with head, made by LL, fully supported with sliders and whatnot in the viewer, documented with open dev kits for Blender etc.

It needs to be trivial for clothing designers to work that "standard body" into their product workflows.

Accessibility to new clothing creators is a hugely important factor and will help a whole new generation of clothing designers get started (most mesh bodies have private dev kits available by application only).


I fear with the lab's recent announcement for clothing creators to join LDPW, they are going to miss the mark yet again and just rinse and repeat a tried and tested bad solution.

Off the shelf starter avatars, only now with dress up options. .. yaaaaaay

Starter avatars are not socially acceptable. They have no purpose after newbie island, and no matter how many dress up options there are, you wont get any user older than a week sporting one.

The socially acceptable part is something the lab consistently miss, because very few of them are active in SL socially.

Most of the LL staff avatars are over a decade old. They made one once and then called it job done.

That is not how the rest of us use SL. An avatar isn't a means to an ends, it's a deeply personal statement of self, which like your actual self .. should own more than one shirt.

Writing this with Lab Gab going in the background .. At least Strawberry has made an effort. Philip's avatar might be described as "iconic" .. but really were being kind. If that was anyone else .. no one in SL would give him the time of day.

lkosov

0xc0ffea, are you hating on the LL mesh (I think they're called "classic" avatars as "not socially acceptable", or the earlier, non-mesh ones? I agree the latter need to be retired, but I think the mesh bodies are a different story. Will they cut it at an AFK sex club? Obviously not, but so long as people change the default appearance and clothes and everything, they're perfectly fine in 95% of the rest of SL. (And the main obstacle people with the default appearance will face is not one of aesthetic puritanism but a well-justified suspicion that they're trolls or griefers.)

And honestly, if we're just going on appearances in the current Lab Gab, I'd be more inclined to talk with Philip (or Strawberry) than Oberwolf, who looks like every other wannabe alpha only interested in weird casual sex and terse conversations lacking in capitalization or punctuation.

Dark Raven

Yeah how about no ! after all of the hundreds spent in items and bodies and heads now throw it away and start over again ? not to mention kill creativity and all the thousands different possible combinations of customization just because some people dont bother to learn how to set up their avatars correctly and how to set viewer and do a little tweaking on computer to make SL run smoothly also running it on something better than a 2007 toaster might help a little :)

Nadeja

I agree with the alpha cuts / sections. That's doable, in fact that has been done already. Bodies without onion layers and without alpha cuts / sections already exist, since a few years: Slink, Kupra... so it works.
BOM ready and no need to learn how to use HUDs and to look for the option to activate BOM and alpha cuts. This makes things a lot simpler for newcomers. When I try to help newbies (and some oldbie who is no longer so young), I can see that working with HUDs to setup their body and head is often the most frustrating part for them.

With the BOM-ready bodies, you put them on and you are essentially set. And if you only want to wear the classic clothing texture layers like the old days, they are as easy to use as the classic avatar: it works the same. The only thing you need is a modern skin for modern avatars, but it's plenty of those now, obviously, even freebies.

Then if you want the best of both the worlds, you can use this, a HUD that adds BOM alphas:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1A4cfgL9aA
https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/The-BoM-Alpha-HUD-for-Inithium-Kupra-Kups-Slink-Redux-Legacy-Maitreya-Tonic-Fine-Curvy-Signature-Gianni-More/21463743

Now, won't be great if LL provides a default avatar that's well made and easy to use? I think so.
If Linden Lab offers an optimized and BOM-ready default avatar (even better modifiable, in the spirit of user created content in SL, and with bento feet, they exist), with a set of outfits, a kit to develop for it... that might work: newcomers (and alts) will begin with that one and learn to use it; then if many people use it, creators will make extra outfits for it, with the provided kit.

With the LDPW announcement, they are also looking for "Riggers and Avatar makers", they mention "rigging for Dev Kits" and they require "Mesh optimization and creating strong LOD".
As other readers here, I hope they aren't just going to make a new batch of starter avatars. But I have this little hope...

Nadeja

Making a new default body, won't trash other bodies. New bodies are made all the times. Just recently: Kalene, Ebody Reborn, Inithium Kupra, etc. Some old body maker removed the onion layers and sent an update. You can change body or head, many people do, when a product offers something more desirable even if it's a radical change, as with Lelutka heads and EvoX compatible skins the past year, but you don't have to.

A problem that newcomers have, instead, is that the starter avatars are so-so at best (the current choices when you sign-up now are the lady with hat, the disco dude and a non-binary one). Their clothing isn't bad; but if you want to give them a taste of the current SL, the classic 2003 avatar doesn't do a good job. Those hands, the rectangular feet...

Or course we have these new bodies and outfits now, but the SL engine is old, older than any of our computers (unless you are using a 20 year old one), despite some improvement, and it doesn't take so much advantage of modern hardware. You can can still have a good framerate for a selfie, but multiply that several times when you go to a 50 people club and you can notice the drop. Even at shopping events there are many people who derender everyone but friends, which contribute to kill the social side of SL. Also a lot of people use laptops today and you don't want SL used by an even smaller niche of hardcore gamers, but by a larger audience.

However, you don't need a trillion of triangles and a supercomputer just because someone is lazy or doesn't care about optimization: RedPoly feet were 8K triangles and they look more realistic than Maitreya's.
https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/MESH-FULL-PERMISSIONS-Flat-Bare-Feet-v20-made-by-RedPoly/3931640
You can add a few more polygons to them, if you want to zoom up to the nails, but there is a diminishing return and eventually up to a certain level it's just wasted resources. As other said this isn't the only factor, also there is the poor texture usage and so on, but wasting resources doesn't help.

Now, if a newcomer would like to catch up enough with the rest of the "residents", without spending money immediately, what can they do? And what's the offer?

They only have a couple of freebie options, that aren't so suitable for newcomers.
The Meshbody Classic body (a remake of the old TMP body), is pretty, but not BOM-ready, also it's heavy and over-scripted and it's hard to find any clothing for it (adjusting the shape slider you can fit some Maitreya outfit, but again this adds further complexity to newcomers).
Else there is Ruth / Roth and derivative works, an open source modifiable body that almost nobody knows (let alone newcomers) and the male version is compatible with essentially nothing. The female version (Ruth) is nice enough and can wear classic mesh outfits and a good percentage of Maitreya outfits, but the body has several issues (a step on the shoulder, the butt slider deforming it in strange ways... some derivative fix that, but they are less compatible), and the texture mapping of the feet make them unusable with any skin.
If you have some experience, you can get good results anyway, and they may work well enough for an alt, but it's not the best for a newbie.

If you want to give a good first experience to newcomers, that is more user-friendly, aesthetically pleasant and a good example performance-wise, I think offering them a good default avatar is a good idea.

Allegory Malaprop

teal deer: yes please, also how are you going to make this magical unicorn happen?

I desperately desperately desperately want LL to come out with a new avatar to put an end (not entirely of course, but mainstream-ish) to the avatar wars. I might actually make clothing again if I wasn't reminded every time I do that it is the most horrible tedious thing on earth to try to re-fit and re-rig and re-fit and re-rig and re-fit and re-rig and I'm just going to cry now and never do this again.

With Meta and the hype, now is the time. Now is past the time to be able to scream to the hills "hey you get no feet and you can't actually get anywhere near people there, come here look at this!!! Also we have cookies/amusement parks/dance clubs/cheese caves/sex dungeons/probably anything else you could want already built and ready for you to check out." Now is the time to be easy to sign up for SL, to not have an official viewer that is...*sigh* no comment...to have an avatar that just works. AND works without the whole very super obvious us vs. them you're totally a n00b (or backwards mainlander with your 2005 blinging shoes and of course people are going to divide into their tribes and their snobbish preferences but let's not make it THAT easy, ok?) divide. Even getting SLers "up to date" is a massive headache that takes literal days if they haven't been following along the whole time (I've helped walk a few returnees through it lately, it's awful, and that's WITH people holding their hands AND having an idea of how a lot of it works). And even if they have, once the new thing comes out, and how many times have you personally had to explain BoM to someone again?

It's too much of a pain in the ass to think anyone who is coming in from zero, who is not already invested, is going to put up with any of this.

Except...how are they going to fix it?

The "original" (Ruth, I'm not talking primvatars) SL avatar was/is a lumpy mess, low poly, poorly rigged in spots and what is going on with the random spikes on the hands, LOOK AT WHAT YOU DID TO THAT THUMB, that don't seem like there are there for any actual reason other than sloppiness? and also incredibly flexible. Massively, amazingly, astoundingly flexible: the same mesh does everything. The same mesh does men, women, huge torpedo boobs, flat chests, pecs, skinny, fat, super tall, super short, butts of all sizes- it goes from "realistic" (we'll use this term loosely) to crazy over the top. Squint a little and it does pretty much everything a human could be shaped like and then a whole bunch of cartoony no you couldn't's.

Philip is super proud of all that the sliders can do, and he should be. We started out with a beautiful spectrum of customization.

And we want all of that. We want ye olden days of you wear some texture clothing and it's just there, it's on, it'll fit, and boys can wear dresses too. Anyone could wear anything, unless you expressly choose to set yourself outside the "standard" market. (No comment on no mod attachments and not being able to make your jellyfish skirt fit, that wasn't the system, that was someone's misplaced paranoia.)

We were lumpy and misshapen, especially if we went far off the "intended" shape (nevermind boobs, look at the men's neck/shoulder/hump area...), and it was what we got, so we liked it. Until we got custom mesh (until we got sculpties, let's be honest, starting to mainstream goodbye flipper feet was the beginning of the end), we accepted it and didn't even really notice how rough it was.

But lumpy and misshapen had a few huge advantages.

If it's all a lil bit abstract, you don't have to hit the target as well. You can push those sliders all the way out (or in) and sure, there's some bumpy, and maybe that isn't as well defined as you want, but hey, it works! When you start getting into realism, you start getting into the way bodies are assorted stretchy bags and ropes and muscles and bones and fat and then there's this layer draped on top that sort of moves and stretches and softens it out a little bit but it's still all kind of there to be seen: muscles deform the undercarriage in a different way than fat, knobby bony bits just under the skin, and that's not even getting into all the different ways a nose can be shaped, nevermind sized. There are defined parts and squishy parts and parts that totally change how they look when they are in clothing (and back to boobs: look at the various boob styles of bodies. Some bodies are made to never wear a bra, or any clothing, and without entirely covering up that whole area and just starting over, you aren't going to hide that fact).

And then how you even actually MOVE that lumpy misshapen around: shape keys, I do not want to deal with all those shape keys, no one wants to deal with all those shape keys. Ruth uses shape keys to shove bits around, there's a slider for everything that has a "start shape" and an "end shape" and it interpolates in between those. The mesh itself is moved around to target for each shape key and hoo boy are there are a lot of those. Hand positions? More keys! (Don't miss those, thank you bento, THAT is one thing that's more-or-less better done the other way entirely.) Turn those flipper feet into something that will fit IN shoes, or hey! BE shoes? More keys! And THEN you get into this muscle slider and that fat slider. Nose keys! Eye keys! These arm keys and THOSE arm keys and hey there are probably some more in here. Hit that "male shape" button? ALL THE ****ING KEYS! It's like redoing mesh to each body, except you're doing it in sections, for so many bodies, so so many bodies, and each and every single one has to be done all over again every single time. You don't have to re-rig it all, but you do have to move it for even more spots. p.s. Rigging of Ruth is as bad as it is because it's all rigged the same regardless. I mean, it's also bad on top of that, but that's gonna mean it's never going to be pretty because you can't have the same thing work in every situation.

And stretching that clothing layer t-shirt over those melons still shows signs of "stress" aka deforming in ways you really really did not want especially if you move the cleavage that way instead of that way and no, I totally did not design that for that much sag, come on, lift those up in utter defiance of gravity with that other slider and THOSE OTHER SHAPE KEYS.

(And feet. Insert a very long bit on feet and flipper feet/bare feet/sock feet here. I'm torturing you enough already if you're reading through all this.)

But wait! "I can resize my mesh body!" you cry! Yes, but under completely different rules. We use Volume Bones (or collision bones or "those vertex thingies with the capitals except when they aren't" or whatever you want to call them) that's another full skeleton (more or less) tacked onto the avatar skeleton. It's like a nesting doll of skeletons, seriously, even aside from extra secret bento centaur legbones you've always got hiding behind you, it's like we have bones within bones layered on top of each other, different sets do different things. The Volume bones scale and move themselves depending on your sliders but not the same way the system avatar does. This is why Standard Sizes were a thing, you could try to aim for making it fit certain bones at certain sides, but then (back to boobs) your boobs are going to move...inwards and sideways and wait, no, why do they move that way? No, seriously, I'm asking, they move that direction until the slider gets to there, and that makes sense but wait, why did you decide to make a 90 degree turn there and go a different direction entirely now???? and aside from the perplexing choices and they are, oh, they are (why do the butt cheeks clap when you use those bones? In/out, fine, but in AND out at the same time and then they move towards each other but also straight out backwards huh?
Did you do that entirely so someone would ask you what is the sound of two cheeks clapping?), Volume bones that scale and move around can't deform mesh into different underlying shapes as elegantly as actual shapes.

And so, the effective workaround is....more mesh bodies. And parts of mesh bodies. Flat chest AND petite because those alternate shape-key-deform into actual different underlying base shapes, as well as going smaller more elegantly than current bone controls allow and better than any ever could even made by the most skilled bone deformer of all time because the system simply...doesn't give that much control. Vague overall size and placement can be jiggled, but that's about it. Don't get me wrong, there's some impressive jiggling to be done, especially if you get into the animation deforms you can lift this and move that with on top of the body (also see: your fingers clicking in and out of place when it's updating positions inherited from your body), but it's still "move and scale" not "completely redesign this entire section."

I'm just going to yell "Belleza" and run the other way, and if you know, you know. Especially Jake. Though hey, the Blender kits FINALLY actually just work for all that now, so get an updated kit. Still the pose thing to deal with, but the shape stuff is now actually possible without 7 versions of Blender and hoping you did each part in the right one.

There's already the Maitreya camp vs. the Legacy camp vs. the curvy body du jour camp (I'm behind, Freya and Hourglass, I was up to there, but is it still split between eBody and Kupra now, or has it changed since yesterday?) and of course all the "but those aren't it for me I prefer ____" camps (which is actually me, and yeah, it sucks that I don't like certain shaped features on the popular options and you can probably even guess my least fav shaped body part), and Ruth could, more or less, satisfy all of them: but there are so many bodies for body types now because you can't satisfy them all with the current tools, entirely aside from the body brand war. Also, hey, we get to be picky once you open that door, and picky we shall be.

So yes, please, give us a new standard avatar that gives us a standard but also while you're at it, fix all those technical limitations and come up with an entirely new system we actually can use and make things for that is not insane and does not make us want to die, because we won't switch- and we won't stop sneering at n00bs- unless we can have our cake, all our cake, our male and female and androgynous cake, our fat and skinny and muscular cake, and eat it too. p.s. let's just do away with the male/female toggle while we're at it and let people do shapes all through in between there, eh? So many men shapes were "technically" female because you chunked that up too much. Also poorly, but just...too much, unless that was what they were really going for. Poor lanky boys.

And if you've read this far, you deserve a cookie and/or sex dungeon, and you can find many of them in SL already, still sucks to be you, Meta.

p.p.s. The cheese caves are in the Destination Guide under "Strange & Mysterious"

Niccia

I'd like to point out one teeny fact about LL. If it comes to money they make, chances are it won't change. But if you spin it that if you pay a lower 'subscription' fee and have access to this new mesh body with some killer existing content, I think it might well return people to SL. Problem is that SL economy is much as it was right after the gambling ban, now with the gacha ban, people are again looking for ways to make 'quick' money with minimal effort. It's always been SL's issue, the cost. Most simply refuse to spend literally hundreds of dollars on a lagging and limited program regardless of how pretty it can be. After a while, pretty avs standing around doing nothing gets boring and people move on.

Mary Nuyasaka

I've been in SL a long time and I still cant get the mesh body skins and head skins to match. Plus now I get ruthed much more. My old avatar looked much better and the mesh ones could do that with a bit of work. Not everyone wants to look like a teenager or wear only the slinkiest of clothes. Designers should listen to people who are buying items to make a new avatar....what are we looking for. Why are the dresses no longer anywhere near as lovely as they were before? Make it all easier or we give up. I'm trying once more for my avatar before giving up.

Evert Jethoe

I am a long time user of SL and what i bump into is:
That i do not want to go and buy mesh parts for my
classic avi. You see the classic avi i made resembles
me and so there should be a system where you simply
can jump into and let that system completely change
your old classic avatar to the modern avatar without
changing how you look example: i like my head/face
as it is and body to as it is now and looks, i only
want it to be converted to the modern avatar.

Mocha

I think LL should create its own mesh avatars, mesh heads, and mesh clothing for new users to use for free. I can't imagine how confusing it must feel to go from a classic avatar to a mesh one within probably a week or even a day maybe. I've been around SL for 15 years so the change to mesh wasn't too drastic for me.

I used to be skeptical about getting my own mesh avatar. So much so that I avoided the whole thing for a few years until this month. My friend who is a 3D artist helped me out by explaining how it works. When I finally understood BOM and that my old avatar would look the same but much better we split our L$ to get myself a Maitreya body. Honestly, it was worth the L$2K. I've been having a blast trying out mesh clothes for it. Now I'm looking into getting a mesh head when I'm able.

Yes, it can be pricey, but if you're able to save up for a couple months or treat yourself to some Lindens every now and then if you can't build an SL business, you can have some SL money here and there.

You can get away with wearing a classic avatar, layers, and maybe prims, but if you want to customize your avatar and improve its look, it'll be difficult to get far. All of the new hair and clothes are mesh. Everything is mesh now. Trust me, I tried. I miss the days of simple avatar customizing too, but mesh is the way things are now. At least mesh makes beautiful hair and clothes that prims and sculpties could never do.

@Evert Jethoe: That's exactly what BOM (baked on mesh) does. I used Maitreya mesh body on my classic avatar shape and classic skin and it still looks exactly the same. The only difference is that the body looks much better and more modern. For lack of better words, the detail on the body is amazing and very pretty. But it's still the same avatar I used years ago.

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